Spalding Theory -- Mormonleaks.com

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_why me
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Re: Spalding Theory -- Mormonleaks.com

Post by _why me »

Darth J wrote:
why me wrote:And him memorizing it and sticking his head in a hat to recite it. Quite a feat if I say so myself.


Yeah. Or like Penn and Teller. When they put on their magic shows, they're really doing magic, you know.

Also he needed to travel around with manuscript in hand,


Yeah. It would be really hard to hide a stack of papers in all the things you would be bringing with you when you move to live in a new place.

work on the farm,


use magic rocks to find silver deposits, get a gullible farmer to bankroll you,

purchase pens and paper


Yeah. It would be really hard to purchase "pens" and paper, which nobody disputes were present when the Book of Mormon manuscript was created.

and then make metal plates...


I know! How ridiculous, right? Next they'll be saying that you could make metal plates in Kinderhook, Illinois or Voree, Wisconsin.

and quite a conspiracy of 14 people:


See: straw man

11 witnesses,


http://www.mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm

emma,


You mean the same Emma who lied about her late husband ever practicing plural marriage, right?

sidney,


Yes, the Spalding Theory posits that Sidney Rigdon helped write the Book of Mormon.

who else? Hyrum?


You mean the same Hyrum who lied about his brother practicing plural marriage, right?

And of course Joseph.


You're right. Joseph Smith would never have lied about anything.

And for what? To establish a new church? :rolleyes: I can think of an easier way to do so. But the list of conspirators grows and grows.

Yeah. Nobody would lie to start a church. Therefore, everyone who starts a new church is telling the truth. Every church is true. And of course nobody has ever gotten personal aggrandizement from being the leader of a church, so we can summarily rule out any motive other than truth.


more one liners like ceeboo but no substance. :rolleyes:
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_Darth J
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Re: Spalding Theory -- Mormonleaks.com

Post by _Darth J »

why me wrote:
Darth J wrote:I agree with Tobin and Why Me that we should go with the theory that has the most plausible explanatory power and accounts for all of the evidence.

So how about the Nephites-Really-Existed-In-The-Real-World Theory? Or the Voices-In-My-Head-Told-Me-To-Believe-Things-That-Are-Inconsistent-With-Verifiable-Reality Theory?

How does the evidence for those theories compare to alternative theories about how the Book of Mormon came into being?


Voices in the head? Nephites really exited in the real world theory? Please address my points not give one line bulldinky like ceeboo.


Ah! I had not ascertained that you do not subscribe to the actual reality of the Nephites, nor to Moroni's Promise. I apologize for the unintended straw man.
_Darth J
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Re: Spalding Theory -- Mormonleaks.com

Post by _Darth J »

why me wrote:more one liners like ceeboo but no substance. :rolleyes:


Why Me, come close to the monitor so I can whisper, because I am insane and I think that computer monitors can talk. Are you close? Okay, here is what I have to whisper to you: you have not said anything of substance. You have simply volunteered a laundry list of fatuous rhetorical questions.
_why me
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Re: Spaulding Theory -- Mormonleaks.com

Post by _why me »

Darth J wrote:
Or what about the witnesses to Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster or Our Lady of Fatima? What about them?



Our lady of fatima is quite interesting. I think that there may be something there:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyIpE1_q ... re=related
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_why me
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Re: Spalding Theory -- Mormonleaks.com

Post by _why me »

Darth J wrote:
why me wrote:more one liners like ceeboo but no substance. :rolleyes:


Why Me, come close to the monitor so I can whisper, because I am insane and I think that computer monitors can talk. Are you close? Okay, here is what I have to whisper to you: you have not said anything of substance. You have simply volunteered a laundry list of fatuous rhetorical questions.


Ohhh....okay....thanks for the headsup. I will try to do better next time.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_Darth J
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Re: Spaulding Theory -- Mormonleaks.com

Post by _Darth J »

why me wrote:
Darth J wrote:
Or what about the witnesses to Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster or Our Lady of Fatima? What about them?



Our lady of fatima is quite interesting. I think that there may be something there:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyIpE1_q ... re=related


Yes, indeed. Our Lady of Fatima witnesses telling the truth and the Book of Mormon witnesses telling the truth are mutually exclusive, but do go on.
_Themis
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Re: Spaulding Theory -- Mormonleaks.com

Post by _Themis »

why me wrote:What is amazing is that when we compare his personal writings at that time in letters, we find terrible sentence structure and a not very creative mind.


Have you been here for many years on Mormon discussion boards and be this ignorant, or are you just being dishonest. The Book of Mormon had terrible sentence structure, and needed major editing to fix them.

Are you seriously going to argue Joseph didn't have a creative mind even though people who knew him said he did? You are the king of just asserting anything you like and never backing it up. It's why people are really putting you on ignore.
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_Willy Law
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Re: Spalding Theory -- Mormonleaks.com

Post by _Willy Law »

why me wrote:And him memorizing it and sticking his head in a hat to recite it. Quite a feat if I say so myself. Also he needed to travel around with manuscript in hand, work on the farm, purchase pens and paper and then make metal plates...

You show an incredible ignorance towards oral composition and how people recalled information prior to computers and word processors. Here is a nice blurb from John Hamer from another board.

That is not how knowledge has always worked. When you read medieval texts, authors will often include long quotes from the authorities --- the Bible, Aristotle, St. Augustine, etc. Quite frequently these quotes will misquote the actual source. Not as a typo (of course there was no type) or a copying error (although the errors of copiests were frequent in an era when all books were hand-copied), but as a significant misquotation; for example, one that paraphrases the authority. This happens because they do not have the Bible or Aristotle in front of them as they write. They are quoting from memory. In an era when there was so much less knowledge and when access to it was so much more difficult, learned brains stored that knowledge very differently than we do today. Much more of the sources were simply committed directly to memory. The Medieval capacity to quote from memory would astound any of us today, because we simply don’t use memory that way.

This brings me back to the Qur’an. Although the book is 80,000 words long, there is a whole class of Muslims, called “hafidh,” who have committed it to memory. This may well seem hard to believe --- like it’s some trick. But, in truth, this is simply a different way to use memory. It’s a way that was much more common in the past and it’s a way that is wholly alien to the way I use my memory in the internet era (I had to look up the word “hafidh” on the internet). But this kind of memorization is by no means an inexplicable phenomenon.

Here in the twenty-first century, all composition is done via word processor. It’s hard to imagine writing any other way, but all writing actually occurred prior to the invention of word processing within my own memory. I have a number of friends, twenty and thirty years older than myself who composed PhD dissertations using note cards for their research and writing text long-hand on note pads. A major portion of finishing their dissertations involved hiring typists. This concept is essentially inconceivable to me and yet I know it happened recently in historical terms.

So it is no surprise that many people today are incredulous at Joseph Smith’s oral composition of the Book of Mormon. He wrote an entire book orally. He dictated and other people wrote it down. Impossible!

Not so. Not only is this process possible, it’s extremely ordinary. It’s not amazing, it’s not miraculous, it’s not extraordinary. It’s alien to us today, but oral composition was, in fact, standard practice in the past.

It turns out that oral composition pre-dates composition by word-processing. As miraculous and inconceivable as it seems, people did, in fact, compose books before the invention of word-processing. More incredibly to our own time and perspective, people composed books prior to the invention of writing itself. When Homer composed the Iliad, he didn’t merely speak it aloud to scribes who took every word down --- he composed it into memory because there was no one to write it down. The whole epic was not merely memorized, like the Qu’ran today, from written text. There was no writing. How impossible was that?

Not impossible at all. It was a completely ordinary feat that has been replicated by oral poets across cultures throughout time. Oral composition predates written composition. The capacity to create a story orally is not miraculous --- it is alien to us today, but in the past, it was totally ordinary.

Joseph Smith was an accomplished oral story-teller. His composition of the Book of Mormon, which was done by dictation, is not a miraculous, incredible, or inexplicable occurrence. It’s noteworthy to be sure --- the same way that it would be noteworthy if you had perfect attendance in Junior High --- i.e., it’s something to note; but it’s not a miracle. The composition of the Book of Mormon is no mystery and no miracle. The process is completely understood and it requires no extraordinary explanations. Joseph Smith was an innately smart and creative person and a gifted story-teller. Having pondered his stories for years, over the course of many months he rattled them off to scribes who wrote them down. For his circumstances, this accomplishment is noteworthy, but it’s hardly miraculous or inexplicable. It’s thoroughly explicable.

http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20371
It is my province to teach to the Church what the doctrine is. It is your province to echo what I say or to remain silent.
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Re: Spaulding Theory -- Mormonleaks.com

Post by _Dan Vogel »

why me wrote:
Harold Lee wrote:
I find Ralph Waldo Emerson, Nathaniel Hawthorne, Emily Bronte, etc from the same century to be much better reads. The reason there are no real in-depth literary analyses of the Book of Mormon from non-mormon scholars is because it is not a good piece of literature, it doesn't claim to be itself and I'm not sure why Mormons say it's so amazing how could a kid under the age of 25 have written it (the book wasn't published until he was almost 25, I don't know why they say at the pulpit a 14 year old boy couldn't have wrote it)?



Well, I don't know...stick your head in a hat and write a book like the Book of Mormon. Also, Emerson was highly educated as were the others for that time. It is a good piece of literature when we consider the literary and religious angle. But one would need to look at it all in context. Whoever wrote that book, a great knowledge of the Bible was necessary and it was not a book to write off the top of the head when that said head was in a hat. What is amazing is that when we compare his personal writings at that time in letters, we find terrible sentence structure and a not very creative mind.



Our inability to do what Joseph Smith did isn’t evidence that he couldn’t do it. We can’t let out lack of talent be evidence for his. You can’t also compare letters he wrote with stories he dictated to others. The lack of writing ability is not the same as a lack of oral ability. The Book of Mormon’s best parts are its sermons, where rhetorical repetition is most prominent. All these qualities show up in his revelations and letters he dictated. The real Joseph Smith, as opposed to Joseph Smith apologists propose, was quite capable of dictating the Book of Mormon.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_why me
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Re: Spalding Theory -- Mormonleaks.com

Post by _why me »

Willy Law wrote:
You show an incredible ignorance towards oral composition and how people recalled information prior to computers and word processors.
Here is a nice blurb from John Hamer from another board.


Joseph Smith was an accomplished oral story-teller. His composition of the Book of Mormon, which was done by dictation, is not a miraculous, incredible, or inexplicable occurrence. It’s noteworthy to be sure --- the same way that it would be noteworthy if you had perfect attendance in Junior High --- i.e., it’s something to note; but it’s not a miracle. The composition of the Book of Mormon is no mystery and no miracle. The process is completely understood and it requires no extraordinary explanations. Joseph Smith was an innately smart and creative person and a gifted story-teller. Having pondered his stories for years, over the course of many months he rattled them off to scribes who wrote them down. For his circumstances, this accomplishment is noteworthy, but it’s hardly miraculous or inexplicable. It’s thoroughly explicable.


http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20371


Well, that is a wonderful opinion. But...I don't think that Joseph could do it. Let me put it this way. Why? What would be his motive? I can think of easier ways to start a church. Just start a church. If he were so gifted, it would have been a piece of cake to do so. And no problem with the neighbors.

What a poor outcome for Joseph...spending all that time with a book that would cause him untold misery. I can only imagine what he was thinking as he shared a prison stay with sidney. Now if we were only dealing with Joseph when it came to the Book of Mormon, it may be different but he needed a lot of stooges to go along with him.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
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