Jesus and Satan as Spirit Brothers

[_Ceeboo]

Hey again, Kevin

I'd certainly like to understand things from the Biblical Christian point of view.

Then you must stop looking at the ocean of diluted and additional information found within Mormonism and instead look at only Biblical information.....if you really want to "understand things from a Biblical Christian point of view"

But I'm also interested in figuring out why the LDS belief that Jesus is Satan's brother is relevant to the question of whether or not God might have inspired Mormonism.

It is relevant because that would make God (and indeed dilute God) the Alpha and Omega - Creator of all things past and present - Almighty God (The one you propose inspired Mormonism) to be the brother of satan.

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_Sethbag]

Putting on a believer's hat for a moment, I think Mormonism's explanation of Jesus, God, and Satan are far more sensible and interesting than the typical "Satan as monster" routine the others believe in.

What makes more sense than it being all in the family? God has children, one of them rebels and leads away some others, another one steps up to the plate to be his dad's Champion in the struggle, plays the starring role in the drama that ensues, etc. No need to reach out and pull in monsters.

Mormonism has just one kind of person, and the distinguishing feature between the good and the bad people is intent and acting on that intent. This is pretty much the situation we humans on Earth find ourselves in, so it should make our Earth life directly analogous to the family situation described in Mormonism's God/Jesus/Lucifer narrative.

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What doesn't make sense to me is the typical Christian-other-than-Mormon narrative.

1. God is also Jesus is also the Holy Ghost, depending on what he's up to at any given moment.
2. Satan is some monster created by God, not of a similar "species" for lack of a better term, but some creature unlike us.
3. Angels are some other species as well, non-human, and therefor in the Old Testament when it references the Sons of God having sex with human women and they bearing children, these children are regarded as half-breed monsters.
4. There is no Heavenly Mother, and we are all not literally children of God as in we are of his species and born of a woman, rather we are all created beings, and God, while called our Father, is not really our Father in the physical sense. He merely created us, and he is of some other species than us. And he is alone but for his alter egos Jesus and the Holy Ghost.

Contrast that with Mormonism's conjectures of a Heavenly Mother, and we being offspring of God and his wife/wives in a literal sense. This makes us of God's species, and the idea that we have godly potential makes perfect sense. Since this is the situation we find ourselves in as humans on Earth with respect to our Earthly parents, the Mormon narrative is directly analogous to what is already very familiar to us about our situation. How could that not make sense?

That said, none of it is really true. But if one of those two belief sets "deserves" to be true, it's the Mormon one, IMHO.

[_KevinSim]

Jesus was the Firstborn and Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning. The fact is Satan was just another organized intelligence like all humans in the beginning. Jesus never was called from the light and given and independent existence. In fact Jesus the Only Begotten of the Father IS God the Eternal Father in this regard as is our Heavenly Father who sits upon the throne of his power.

Nightlion, I agree with you that Jesus is not just the oldest, most righteous of a group of children that includes us. Jesus was special. I would even go so far as to say that He is indeed "the Eternal Father." That does not by itself prevent Him from also being in a very real sense a spirit son of God the Father, just as all of us are, just as Satan is. Jesus is the Eternal Father in the same sense that Jesus wants us to some day be "the Eternal Father"; Jesus desires that the day someday come when we will someday be completely one with the Father, in the same sense that He is completely one with the Father.

Jesus Christ was with the Father and the Holy Ghost when together they all acted as the Very Eternal Father to call forth all intelligence into independent spheres of existences as spoken to in D&C 29 and 93 especially.

I agree with this completely. Jesus was with the Father when they called "forth all intelligence into" those independent spheres of existence. They were given spirit bodies, and at the same time He that is Jesus was also given a spirit body. It is in that sense that Jesus is our spirit brother; He was given a spirit body by the same Father who gave us spirit bodies.

All conceptions of God are accomlished by the word of their power which are their commandments and not by any carnal nor sensual means. They are not sexual being and they did not come by way of the seeds of sexual procreation.

I have nothing invested in the idea that spirits came "by way of the seeds of sexual procreation." I know a lot of Latter-day Saints believe sex is involved. They might be right, but I certainly don't know that they're right, and will keep believing no sex needed to be involved until I discover with certainty otherwise.

what do you think? Jesus and Satan are in no way brothers.

I don't see anything in what you have said that precludes Jesus and us from being brothers, which would also make Jesus and Satan brothers.

Please read both D&C sections cited before you attempt to correct me please.

I read them.

[_Tobin]

KevinSim,

I really don't see how you are agreeing with Nightlion or myself at all.

We are NOT Jesus nor can we BE Jesus (or the Father). We will never suffer for the sins of the world like Christ did. We will never live perfect lives or be the perfect example. We will never be the one to be slain and take up our bodies again and become the first resurrection that all others follow afterwards. You simply don't understand the phrase "the only begotten" at all OR who and what Jesus really was. We are not each and every one of us "begotten" of the Father as you seem to think. That is patently absurd when you consider the phrase in the first place. It literally means Jesus is the ONLY begotten of the Father. We are NOT begotten of the Father. We are NOT literally spirit sons and daughters of God at all. We are spirit sons and daughters of Celestial Beings, as we also hope to be one day. And Satan shares that origin with us. We are very unlike God in those ways and when Jesus hopes we will become one with God. It does not mean that we will in turn become God - it MEANS we will share our purpose and intent with God - NOT BE GOD (which we can never be or attain for the obvious reasons I've already pointed out to you).

[_huckelberry]

What makes more sense than it being all in the family? God has children, one of them rebels and leads away some others, another one steps up to the plate to be his dad's Champion in the struggle, plays the starring role in the drama that ensues, etc.

This makes us of God's species, and the idea that we have godly potential makes perfect sense. Since this is the situation we find ourselves in as humans on Earth with respect to our Earthly parents, the Mormon narrative is directly analogous to what is already very familiar to us about our situation. How could that not make sense?

I have a difficult time getting my mind back to the place where the Mormon picture made some sort of sense to me. I do remember there was a time when I thought it clear and superior. It may be that you have put your finger on just how it can appear that way. It is like our family relations here. We do not have a lot of experience with alternatives.

I remember having some difficulties with some questions however. How is it that a member of our species could be the source of the existence and order of the universe? If not the creator what is he? Another human? If God and me and God and Stalin and God and the devil are all the same species how is there stability in Gods character?. Perhaps God will decide to join Satan one day. Or more simply, how is it that God does not grow old and die?

[_huckelberry]

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What doesn't make sense to me is the typical Christian-other-than-Mormon narrative.

1. God is also Jesus is also the Holy Ghost, depending on what he's up to at any given moment.
2. Satan is some monster created by God, not of a similar "species" for lack of a better term, but some creature unlike us.
3. Angels are some other species as well, non-human, and therefor in the Old Testament when it references the Sons of God having sex with human women and they bearing children, these children are regarded as half-breed monsters.
4. There is no Heavenly Mother, and we are all not literally children of God as in we are of his species and born of a woman, rather we are all created beings, and God, while called our Father, is not really our Father in the physical sense. He merely created us, and he is of some other species than us. And he is alone but for his alter egos Jesus and the Holy Ghost.

I thought there were a couple of things here that were interesting. Not so much number one which for Trinitarian concepts is a bit mangled. I think Satan is subject to enough speculation than there are multiple images. More standard than the image of monster is the idea of a created angel who choose to turn against God. He is an example of the problem decision making for intelligent spirits. Though he is not exactly our species we certainly have enough in common with Satan that we can love his example. Considering that I think the Mormon view of Satan is pretty much the same as the one in rest of Christian. The idea of a war in heaven etc is pretty well represented in Christian tradition. The only difference I see is the idea of Satan's plan being to save everybody.

I see that God as creator could mean different things in different views. Seth you seem to see creator as relatively uninvolved personally and not having the concern and understanding for people that a human father has. It is possible to reverse that and see a creator as personally understanding and involved to a degree a natural father cannot approach. God as creator could know the hairs on your head and the details of your problems better than you. A natural father cares but does not understand as well.

The Mormon God ,an excellent human intending good toward billions of Children always make me wonder if he knows our name. If he does actually know everybodies name that alone suggests there is an enormous difference between our well intentioned human fathers and God.

[_Sethbag]

I have a difficult time getting my mind back to the place where the Mormon picture made some sort of sense to me. I do remember there was a time when I thought it clear and superior. It may be that you have put your finger on just how it can appear that way. It is like our family relations here. We do not have a lot of experience with alternatives.

This was the appeal of it to me. Between the version of God that is analogous to our own existence, or the one that is too mysterious and unlike our own Earthly existence as to be incomprehensible, I greatly preferred the one analogous to what we are now.

I remember having some difficulties with some questions however. How is it that a member of our species could be the source of the existence and order of the universe?

The same way that Dumbledore could be both an old man like my grandpa was, but with magic, unlike my grandpa.

You will recall that Mormonism posits that humans are of the same species as God, but that God's body has been resurrected and perfected, while ours hasn't. So he's like us, but better. Also, Mormons here receive the priesthood, or the right to tap the power of God in Jesus' name, assuming all the caveats like it's his will, if it works praise God, if it doesn't it just wasn't God's will, or you weren't worthy, or whatever. After exaltation, however, a Mormon would have that power they formerly tapped into from God, but they will have it in their own right. Again, like us, but better.

If not the creator what is he? Another human? If God and me and God and Stalin and God and the devil are all the same species how is there stability in Gods character?. Perhaps God will decide to join Satan one day. Or more simply, how is it that God does not grow old and die?

Because he's resurrected as per Mormonism, which means he no longer is subject to aging processes, infirmities, and death. Stability is in God's character because he's already passed all the tests and come out the other side, and no longer is subject to temptation. Satan hadn't passed all the tests, and neither had we, and were still subject to temptation.

I'm not saying any of this is true of course. Just that it makes more sense by being similar to our own condition, just better, more perfect, and so on. Contrast that with the story of a God without body, parts, nor passions, who is everyone and nowhere, fills the universe but is able to fill each of our hearts individually, is all love, all power, all spirit, etc. but is now believed by people not to be a physical being with a body (unlike the Mormon belief), who isn't our literal father but rather is just some being who created us, and so on. This idea of God is so unlike anything we have any experience with that the usual response to curious questioning from children is just that it's all a big mystery, and we cannot understand it.

Anyhow, for all the evangelicals who take exception to the Mormon belief that Jesus and Satan are brothers, how is that much different from the non-Mormon belief that Jesus and Satan were both created by the same being? As brothers, they would share a parent (or parents). As fellow creations they were both constructed by the same creator. There is a clear analog between the two which belies, IMHO, the offense taken by those incensed by the Mormon blasphemy.

[_Brackite]

What's the big deal about the LDS belief that Jesus is Satan's brother? It seems to always come up when Biblical Christians try to criticize the LDS Church. What's their point? Granted that the Bible never explicitly says that Jesus is Satan's spirit brother, but the Bible also never explicitly says that so-and-so was Jesus' biological first cousin; does that mean that Jesus had no biological first cousins? There are a lot of things that the Bible doesn't say that are in fact quite true.

There is also No where where it explicitly says that Jesus is Satan's spirit brother in the Book of Mormon or in the Doctrine and Covenants.

2 Nephi 26:12:

[12] And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;

[_cafe crema]

Anyhow, for all the evangelicals who take exception to the Mormon belief that Jesus and Satan are brothers, how is that much different from the non-Mormon belief that Jesus and Satan were both created by the same being? As brothers, they would share a parent (or parents). As fellow creations they were both constructed by the same creator. There is a clear analog between the two which belies, IMHO, the offense taken by those incensed by the Mormon blasphemy.

I will explain this poorly as I usually do. Satan was created by The Son, who came down from heaven and became man. It is not possible in traditional Christian understanding for The Son and Satan to be brothers.

[_MCB]

There is also No where where it explicitly says that Jesus is Satan's spirit brother in the Book of Mormon or in the Doctrine and Covenants.

2 Nephi 26:12:

[12] And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;

So that belief appeared first in the JoD? If so, can't it be tossed just as easily as other speculations found there? Although seeds for it can be found in the Book of Abraham.