For former Mormons who became atheists

[_LittleNipper]

What do you believe? Why do you believe it? Who told you?

1) What do you believe?
I believe the story of Job as related in the Hebrew Tanakh is a myth, and that it serves as a poor basis for modern ethics.

2) Why do you believe it?
I don't.

3)Who told you?
You did.

So now that I've answered your questions, please answer mine: Are you saying Job's children should be thankful because the Hebrew sky god was kind enough to snuff them out while they were having a good time?

I believe that they had no clue anything happened until they woke up in the afterlife. And if in Paradise, then they were very content. I believe Fabio Lanzoni is a myth if God is

[_The Erotic Apologist]

I believe that they had no clue anything happened until they woke up in the afterlife. And if in Paradise, then they were very content.

Thanks for the answer.

I believe Fabio Lanzoni is a myth if God is

I'm sure Fabio is convinced he is god.

[_subgenius]

I'll see what I can do if you stop making blanket statements toward Atheists. :)

difference being i do not claim association with Nipper....whereas, with atheism...you do.
Your specific mention of Nipper and me is altogether different than speaking of "Chrsitians"...if you can not discern the difference here, then little more than gnashing of teeth is left for you.

I believe you're conflating assertions with a demonstration. Please provide a demonstration of your logic, reason, and common sense in reference to Epicurus' statements.

So, you're in essence stating that killing those children was justified?

what gave it away?...was it when i type in the phrase "justifiable homicide"?
and for the record...they were Job's children not "children"...they were grown adults at the time of their demise.
nevertheless...as i stated...."murder" is an incorrect description of what occurred. (sorry to have to impose the burden of actually reading and understanding the text of what you seemingly abhor, but i find it most useful to know something about that which i despise before i despise it)

Satan has to get the go ahead to kill those children. He and your god planned this out, and then the children were killed. That's pretty much all there is to it.

like i said before, many atheists, yourself included, seemingly can not grasp concepts which are complex...there is a desire to "boil down" or reduce things to their lowest common denominator and pronounce that as some sort of essence..as if any other details are superfluous...as if the only thing worth knowing is that which is "dumbed down". I happen to disagree.
Though i suppose there is some credence in considering a human being, such as yourself, nothing more than an eating, sleeping and defecating bag of chemicals.

So. Did your god create Evil. Yes or no? And did your god conspire with Satan to have those children killed? Yes or no? I think we can safely infer that you do, indeed, believe your god conspired with Satan to have those children killed.

again, i have proven that no "conspiracy" could have occurred. Obviously you still misunderstand how Satan is used in that story and throughout the Old Testament. Nevertheless, i will state that NO, God did not create Evil.
(again if you read my previous post, that becomes readily apparent and why).

And you're ok with that?

Yes. The story of Job clearly makes sense. I agree that selflessness should be rewarded, that selfishness should be punished, that there is good and that there is bad, and that there is a God.

To the OP... Here's yet another reason why I reject religion. Look what it does to the Believer's moral compass. He's not only ok with children being murdered if it's his god's will (whatever that means), but he calls is justifiable homicide. !!!

V/R
Dr. Cam

for someone who rejects religion, you seem to post around here a lot. For example, i do not drink...ergo i do not shop in the liquor store...and i do not spend time yelling at the people that do.
So, there is another reason why i reject atheism...it is juvenile, self involved, and has little to actually offer society. That is why it has been, and always will be, a minority position among people...its like a defect, like an albino or red/green blindness...somewhat harmless, annoying at times, but just wont go away.

[_subgenius]

My apology, i forgot to respond to this little gem in my last post, so please, find it herein.

I believe you're conflating assertions with a demonstration. Please provide a demonstration of your logic, reason, and common sense in reference to Epicurus' statements.

the question(s) from Epicurus
"Is God willing to prevent Evil, but not able?
Then He is not omnipotent".....blah blah blah

Nietzsche wrote a book titled "Beyond Good and Evil" ...and ultimately that which is beyond good and evil is Love. God is this love and so we see that Epicurus's little parlor trick relies only on the temporal man....relies on he that is trapped in the cycle of good and evil. The primary flaws of Epicurus is he denies that suffering is a test (which makes sense for him being a hedonist) and that God is somehow subject to the human perception of morality (this being clearly contrary to what we are taught in Ecclesiastes).
Personally, i think the best fodder from Epicurus's question is that it can be useful in having the theological debate about free-will and omnipotence....and honestly, does more to demean and destroy atheism than anything else - so a certain amount of irony for an atheist to introduce it, but they do rely on lowest common denominator type of thinking (our little cavemen they are).

It is interesting because the Book of Job is concerned with this very paradox of "why is there evil?". And given your position, no wonder it has been difficult for you to resolve and/or discern....just as you clumsily tried to use the Epicurus meme as some sort of justification for atheism. This why you should actually read the book of Job. Pay attention to how Job's 3 friends counsel him, what Elihu says, and then to how God speaks to him.
I think of evil, sometimes, as being thirsty...does it not lead to drink?.....does suffering not often lead to growth?...and other times i think about the natural order of the world...is a tree evil when it falls upon a home? are tornadoes evil?
an interesting subject to say the least...but more relevant to ourselves than to God.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Hello Mr. Sub-Genius,

difference being i do not claim association with Nipper....whereas, with atheism...you do.
Your specific mention of Nipper and me is altogether different than speaking of "Chrsitians"...if you can not discern the difference here, then little more than gnashing of teeth is left for you.

No worries then. I'll just group you with all Christians since that's the ideology with which you identify. Thanks for the clarification!

what gave it away?...was it when i type in the phrase "justifiable homicide"?
and for the record...they were Job's children not "children"...they were grown adults at the time of their demise.
nevertheless...as i stated...."murder" is an incorrect description of what occurred. (sorry to have to impose the burden of actually reading and understanding the text of what you seemingly abhor, but i find it most useful to know something about that which i despise before i despise it)

I just want to capture this for the record that all Christians are psychopaths who believe it's OK to murder another man's children if they're perceived as not being faithful to their god, AND that it's OK for their god to create Evil, conspire with it, and give the green light to have another man's children murdered as an ego test.

To the OP, if you ever wonder why I reject the basic premise of a faith-based ideology you have exhibit #1 right here for your consideration.

Shame on you Sub-Genius, and your fellow Christians.

like i said before, many atheists, yourself included, seemingly can not grasp concepts which are complex...there is a desire to "boil down" or reduce things to their lowest common denominator and pronounce that as some sort of essence..as if any other details are superfluous...as if the only thing worth knowing is that which is "dumbed down". I happen to disagree.
Though i suppose there is some credence in considering a human being, such as yourself, nothing more than an eating, sleeping and defecating bag of chemicals.

Well, clearly you and your fellow Christians are blood-thirsty psychopaths who are incapable of distinguishing between right and wrong. It's wrong to create Evile. It's wrong to collaborate with Evil. And it's wrong to murder another man's children if you disagree with their basic characteristics.

Shame on you. Shame. On. You. You're disgusting for defending this vile behavior. You cast shame on all your fellow Christians, too.

again, i have proven that no "conspiracy" could have occurred. Obviously you still misunderstand how Satan is used in that story and throughout the Old Testament. Nevertheless, i will state that NO, God did not create Evil.
(again if you read my previous post, that becomes readily apparent and why).

I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.

Yes. The story of Job clearly makes sense. I agree that selflessness should be rewarded, that selfishness should be punished, that there is good and that there is bad, and that there is a God.

Don't you mean justifiably murdered? This is why Christians get no quarter when it comes to your claims of morality. You actually believe people should be killed if they don't meet your nonsensical standards of conduct. That's frightening.

for someone who rejects religion, you seem to post around here a lot. For example, i do not drink...ergo i do not shop in the liquor store...and i do not spend time yelling at the people that do.
So, there is another reason why i reject Christianity...it is juvenile, self involved, and has little to actually offer society. That is why it has been, and always will be, a minority position among people...its like a defect, like an albino or red/green blindness...somewhat harmless, annoying at times, but just wont go away.

FTFY. I posted on a thread dedicated to former Mormons who became Atheists. by the way, are you a Mormon?

V/R
Dr. Cam

[_The Erotic Apologist]

So, there is another reason why i reject atheism...it is juvenile, self involved, and has little to actually offer society. That is why it has been, and always will be, a minority position among people...its like a defect, like an albino or red/green blindness...somewhat harmless, annoying at times, but just wont go away.

Hey Subby, how much of your religious devotion comes from your visceral reaction to atheism?

All of it?

Half of it?

Give us a number.

[_Res Ipsa]

Nietzsche wrote a book titled "Beyond Good and Evil" ...and ultimately that which is beyond good and evil is Love. God is this love and so we see that Epicurus's little parlor trick relies only on the temporal man....relies on he that is trapped in the cycle of good and evil. The primary flaws of Epicurus is he denies that suffering is a test (which makes sense for him being a hedonist) and that God is somehow subject to the human perception of morality (this being clearly contrary to what we are taught in Ecclesiastes).
Personally, i think the best fodder from Epicurus's question is that it can be useful in having the theological debate about free-will and omnipotence....and honestly, does more to demean and destroy atheism than anything else - so a certain amount of irony for an atheist to introduce it, but they do rely on lowest common denominator type of thinking (our little cavemen they are).

It is interesting because the Book of Job is concerned with this very paradox of "why is there evil?". And given your position, no wonder it has been difficult for you to resolve and/or discern....just as you clumsily tried to use the Epicurus meme as some sort of justification for atheism. This why you should actually read the book of Job. Pay attention to how Job's 3 friends counsel him, what Elihu says, and then to how God speaks to him.
I think of evil, sometimes, as being thirsty...does it not lead to drink?.....does suffering not often lead to growth?...and other times i think about the natural order of the world...is a tree evil when it falls upon a home? are tornadoes evil?
an interesting subject to say the least...but more relevant to ourselves than to God.

Just for clarification so I understand your argument: Are you saying that the terms good and evil simply don't apply to God? That whatever god does is good by the simple fact that he does it? That an act that, in isolation might appear evil, is in fact good because god acts out of love?

[_The Erotic Apologist]

Just for clarification so I understand your argument: Are you saying that the terms good and evil simply don't apply to God? That whatever god does is good by the simple fact that he does it? That an act that, in isolation might appear evil, is in fact good because god acts out of love?

That's certainly my impression...god slaughters and torments his children because he loves them, because he wants them to be with him in paradise.

/gag

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Nietzsche wrote a book titled "Beyond Good and Evil" ...and ultimately that which is beyond good and evil is Love.

The fact that you would quote Nietzche is ironic. You clearly don't understand him, or his philosophy.

God is this love

Says who? Once again you're asserting, and not demonstrating.

and so we see that Epicurus's little parlor trick relies only on the temporal man....relies on he that is trapped in the cycle of good and evil. The primary flaws of Epicurus is he denies that suffering is a test (which makes sense for him being a hedonist) and that God is somehow subject to the human perception of morality (this being clearly contrary to what we are taught in Ecclesiastes).

So, your god, who created man, manipulates man, created Evil, collaborates with Evil cannot be understood by man? That's a conundrum. Your god is irrelevant then.

Personally, i think the best fodder from Epicurus's question is that it can be useful in having the theological debate about free-will and omnipotence....and honestly, does more to demean and destroy atheism than anything else - so a certain amount of irony for an atheist to introduce it, but they do rely on lowest common denominator type of thinking (our little cavemen they are).

Or Christians don't have the ability to see things for what they are, and project onto the Atheist the very thing they abhor most about themselves... The inability to think. You simply want to say, "God did it." and that relieves you of responsibilty for your thoughts, actions, and behaviors.

It is interesting because the Book of Job is concerned with this very paradox of "why is there evil?". And given your position, no wonder it has been difficult for you to resolve and/or discern....just as you clumsily tried to use the Epicurus meme as some sort of justification for atheism. This why you should actually read the book of Job. Pay attention to how Job's 3 friends counsel him, what Elihu says, and then to how God speaks to him.

No. I used Epicurus' example to demonstrate that your god isn't worthy of worship, much less any other kind of consideration. That was pretty obvious from the meme, but Christians lack the fundamental ability of discernment.

I think of evil, sometimes, as being thirsty...does it not lead to drink?.....does suffering not often lead to growth?...and other times i think about the natural order of the world...is a tree evil when it falls upon a home? are tornadoes evil?
an interesting subject to say the least...but more relevant to ourselves than to God.

Well, your god claims responsbilty for all calamities. So, yes, if something bad, evil, or calamitious happens your god happily accepts responsibility for it. That's pretty disturbing that you'd embrace a deity like that.

[Guest]

Let's see how Christians, outside the wildly inconsitent mental state of Sub-Genius, views the Story of Job:

http://www.gci.org/Bible/job/trial

Why will Job suffer such tragedies? Because God is about to challenge the devil with Job’s obedience and faith.

The big dare

The prologue or introduction to the book of Job tells us, the readers, the background of God’s challenge and Job’s suffering. Scene I invites us behind the curtain to the universe-ruling throne of God. Angelic beings are delivering reports on their activities. Satan is among them. The Evil One has been roaming the earth, surveying his domain (Job 1:6-7; 1 John 5:19; Revelation 12:9).

Job’s troubles begin because God presents him to Satan as shining example of virtue. “Have you considered my servant Job?” God asks Satan. “There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil” (Job 1:8).

Yet God will soon allow Satan to afflict Job. Obviously, God is not punishing Job for sin. God himself says Job is “blameless and upright.” Job suffers because he is the best of men, not because he is the worst.

Satan rejects God’s view of Job’s pious character. He implies that Job has an ulterior motive, a cynical reason for obeying and trusting God (verses 9-22). “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan asks. Satan insinuates that Job is simply out for what he can get from God. Job is only a fair-weather friend, Satan insists. “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has?” Satan argues. “You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land.”

Satan sneers at God’s pride and joy — the man Job, who is unlike any other. He doesn’t love you, Satan implies. Take away Job’s many blessings and you’ll find that he’s no friend of yours. Satan tries to make a bet with God. “Stretch out your hand and strike everything he has,” Satan dares God, “and he will surely curse you to your face.”

Really? Does Job love God only for selfish reasons? Do we? Well — let’s see, is God’s reply. He tells Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

...

Job is not a victim of time and chance but a part of God’s orchestrated purpose. Job has no inkling he is the star actor in a God-directed morality play on earth. As far as Job knows, God has disappeared from his life.

This has to be the most immoral thing I've ever read. Sub-Genius embraces this story. Glories in it.

It's filthy. Christians who believe this and promote this story as moral are confused at best, and mentally ill at worse. It's clear.

V/R
Dr. Cam