For former Mormons who became atheists

[_LittleNipper]

[God will do nothing that contradicts HIS Holy Word found in the Bible. God will do things that may contradict that which God is not the author of.

Your god said he created evil, and is responsible for all calamities.

Why in the world would you worship something like that?

V/R
Dr. Cam

God is love. Without God there is no eternal LOVE. God allows things to happen because He understands the broad implications. He also knows exactly would would happen to everyone if He did nothing. You are not God. God designed math, science, life, art. Clearly there is rhyme and reason to many things in life. There are lso somethings we cannot understsand presently, but that does not mean that they don't have a reason.

[_subgenius]

Yes, you pointed to me toward four books comprising thousands of pages. I asked a simple question for clarification: is everything written in those four books the "Law" you referred to? Why are you unwilling to answer?

i did answer..and quite honestly and quite succinctly. If you want a simpler introduction then concern yourself only with the Pentateuch (first five books of the Old Testament), those should at least help you understand the "basics".

Brad, no offense but this is where it is apparent that you are "in too deep"...you are trying to eat meat before milk. I can appreciate your curiosity (though it is at times nefarious) but you would also like to run before you have learned to walk.
Consider if you had asked me the question - "who is God" - my response would have been the same, and would have been appropriate.

Your expectation is that there is a chapter and verse that begins with "Here it is" - but the scriptures are not a textbook, they are not something that can be cherry-picked. They are a comprehensive view of God and the Law - and they are discerned spiritually - not temporally. This latter experience is all that you currently consider real or valid and so the former will always be lost to you. The only reasonable conclusion from this is that it is rather futile for you to continue, don't you agree? If your only goal is to degrade and destroy religion then you are no better than anyone else and likewise you will never achieve your goal...victory will never be yours....this is apparent to anyone who knows about "pearls before swine"....that will always have you on the outside looking in.

So, do not think me coy when i answer that the answer is the scriptures, rather recognize that i mean the answer is the scriptures...not in them, but from them.
Sincerely consider the following scripture:
1 Cor 2:13-14
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You made two assertions about God being subject to the Law -- you explained nothing. If God chose to lie out of love -- just as he can kill one's entire family out of love -- what is it that stops him from actually lying? And if God is powerless to violate this law, who or what imposes it on him?

The two assertions are valid, and as you may not be aware of the nature of God it is no surprise that they are nonsense, or confusing, to you. I often find it interesting how a person can claim disbelief in something that can not even describe correctly - nor have actual knowledge of.

So, when you ask "what stops Him from lying"...the response is simple...nothing because it is never something that exists to be stopped. Ask yourself what stops water from being dry? what stops a burning candle from being dark? what stops a dog from being a cat?

You do, however, bring up a topic that i do enjoy sincere discussion about (so, obviously you are not interested) - that topic being concerned with the nature of God and the nature of the Law.

[_subgenius]

Your god said he created evil, and is responsible for all calamities.

you have been wrong out of the starting gate...it has been taught to you, but your insistence on being wrong is nothing ore than a discredit to your posts.

When one thinks about good or evil, in terms of what 'happens to me" - like with calamities, plagues, accidents, lottery winning, holes in one, etc...those are only good and evil to "you"...you are what has created good and evil. They are neither to God.
Suffering is a choice you make for yourself, do not blame God for your choices - that is the most glaring error you have made to date....and ironically, that is the only sin that has been present so far.

[_Res Ipsa]

There's lots of stuff in those books. So, is god "subject" to everything written in those books? And what it does it mean to be "subject" to them? Does it mean he literally cannot do anything that would contradict them?

God will do nothing that contradicts HIS Holy Word found in the Bible. God will do things that may contradict that which God is not the author of.

OK, if I understand you correctly, the entire Bible is God's Holy Word. You said that God will do nothing that contradicts his word. Does that mean he could contradict his word if he chose to, but chooses not to? You know the Bible better than I. Is there a scripture where he says he won't contradict his Holy Word?

Also, what would it mean for God to contradict something said in the Bible. For example, god says "thou shalt not bear false witness." This appears to be a commandment only to humans. It doesn't say "I shall not bear false witness." So, does this commandment apply to God? I can think of a few explicit promises God makes in the Bible: not to destroy the earth again by flood, the Abrahamic covenant, the promise we can live with God again if we meet certain conditions. But, in your view, is God agreeing to be bound by every commandment he gave us?

[_The Erotic Apologist]

God will do nothing that contradicts HIS Holy Word found in the Bible. God will do things that may contradict that which God is not the author of.

[_Res Ipsa]

Yes, you pointed to me toward four books comprising thousands of pages. I asked a simple question for clarification: is everything written in those four books the "Law" you referred to? Why are you unwilling to answer?

i did answer..and quite honestly and quite succinctly. If you want a simpler introduction then concern yourself only with the Pentateuch (first five books of the Old Testament), those should at least help you understand the "basics".

Brad, no offense but this is where it is apparent that you are "in too deep"...you are trying to eat meat before milk. I can appreciate your curiosity (though it is at times nefarious) but you would also like to run before you have learned to walk.
Consider if you had asked me the question - "who is God" - my response would have been the same, and would have been appropriate.

Your expectation is that there is a chapter and verse that begins with "Here it is" - but the scriptures are not a textbook, they are not something that can be cherry-picked. They are a comprehensive view of God and the Law - and they are discerned spiritually - not temporally. This latter experience is all that you currently consider real or valid and so the former will always be lost to you. The only reasonable conclusion from this is that it is rather futile for you to continue, don't you agree? If your only goal is to degrade and destroy religion then you are no better than anyone else and likewise you will never achieve your goal...victory will never be yours....this is apparent to anyone who knows about "pearls before swine"....that will always have you on the outside looking in.




So, do not think me coy when i answer that the answer is the scriptures, rather recognize that i mean the answer is the scriptures...not in them, but from them.
Sincerely consider the following scripture:
1 Cor 2:13-14
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You made two assertions about God being subject to the Law -- you explained nothing. If God chose to lie out of love -- just as he can kill one's entire family out of love -- what is it that stops him from actually lying? And if God is powerless to violate this law, who or what imposes it on him?

The two assertions are valid, and as you may not be aware of the nature of God it is no surprise that they are nonsense, or confusing, to you. I often find it interesting how a person can claim disbelief in something that can not even describe correctly - nor have actual knowledge of.

So, when you ask "what stops Him from lying"...the response is simple...nothing because it is never something that exists to be stopped. Ask yourself what stops water from being dry? what stops a burning candle from being dark? what stops a dog from being a cat?

You do, however, bring up a topic that i do enjoy sincere discussion about (so, obviously you are not interested) - that topic being concerned with the nature of God and the nature of the Law.

Subgenius,

Let's not lie to each other. Of course you intend offense with your "in over your head" remarks. You use them as a put-down on anyone who asks you questions about your positions. At least have the honesty to admit that.

I am asking you questions, not because I don't understand the concepts, but because I've had discussions with hundreds of people over the years who understand these issues in completely different ways. I ask these questions of you because you appear to have given them a great deal of thought and have developed an explanatory framework that you believe makes sense out of the universe. It looks different to me than what I've encountered in doing reading and discussion, and so I'm curious about it. I think you have some very interesting ideas, and could communicate them effectively if you dropped the "smarter than thou" schtick.

My only goal is not to destroy and degrade religion. In fact,that's not even a goal for me. I'm interested in ideas -- especially ideas about how people make sense out of the universe. Mormon issues are especially interesting to me because it is the religion I was raised in. But I don't have to destroy the LDS church to validate my decision that it was not what it claimed to be. And I don't have to destroy religion to validate my non-belief.

So, when I ask questions, it generally means I've heard something that might be new or different. I want to understand the other person's thinking. Sometimes I'll want to destructively test the idea by throwing other ideas at it to see how they hold up.

In my opinion, the meat before milk line is simply a dodge -- nothing more, nothing less. The concepts you are presenting are not that intellectually difficult. In my opinion, it's disingenuous to say "I won't explain my beliefs because you won't understand the beliefs I haven't tried to explain to you."

So, let me restate what I think you are saying so you can check my understanding. The answer to my question about God being subject to everything in the standard works is "yes, but in a holistic sense." The law that god is subject to is not like a traffic law that one can look up in a book. The law is the nature of god. If you read the standard works together in a sincere manner, you will come to an understanding of the nature of god. That understanding will be that God's nature the law are the same -- just like water is wet, god is truthful. To ask if god can lie is a nonsense question. Because understanding the nature of god flows from a synthesis of everything in the standard works, it is an illegitimate and meaningless form of argument to criticize god by referencing less than the entirety of the standard works.

Am I close?

[_ludwigm]

Let's not lie to each other.

You are lost - by default.

I am asking you questions, not because I don't understand the concepts, but because I've had discussions with hundreds of people over the years who understand these issues in completely different ways.

Most of them can not discuss it...

In my opinion, the meat before milk line is simply a dodge -- nothing more, nothing less.

+1

Am I close?

To me, yes.

[_Res Ipsa]

Thanks, ludwigm. I really like the quote from Eco that appears in your sig.

[_LittleNipper]

God will do nothing that contradicts HIS Holy Word found in the Bible. God will do things that may contradict that which God is not the author of.

God is speaking of another Worldwide Flood. Of course there are area floods but there will never be another worldwide flood.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

God is speaking of another Worldwide Flood. Of course there are area floods but there will never be another worldwide flood.

No.

Wrong again, and again, and again... You don't even understand your own scriptures.

V/R
Dr. Cam