Gay Parents: 11 x more likely to molest and other "goodies"

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_palerobber
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Re: Gay Parents: 11 x more likely to molest and other "goodi

Post by _palerobber »

hobo1512 wrote:It is good data only if it supports your position.

It is a good statistical report only if it supports your position.

It is good research only if your side is paying for it.

Everything else is garbage.

Just sayin.


that's a BS dodge employed by people who want to avoid dealing with objective reality.

just saying.

(...but maybe you're just expressing cynicism)
Last edited by Guest on Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
_moksha
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Re: Gay Parents: 11 x more likely to molest and other "goodi

Post by _moksha »

Yahoo Bot wrote:Only to udder fools.


So now you are reduced to insulting cows? Well, that sucks.

----------------------
11 x more likely! Hey, got any stats on molestation among polygamists?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_hobo1512
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Re: Gay Parents: 11 x more likely to molest and other "goodi

Post by _hobo1512 »

palerobber wrote:
hobo1512 wrote:It is good data only if it supports your position.

It is a good statistical report only if it supports your position.

It is good research only if your side is paying for it.

Everything else is garbage.

Just sayin.


that's a b***s*** dodge employed by people who want to avoid dealing with objective reality.

just saying.

(...but maybe you're just expressing cynicism)


Get a grip.

Any study, and I do mean any is always picked apart for methodology, sample size, funding, etc. The side funding it stands behind it, and the opposing site finds flaws. It really isn't that difficult of a concept is it?

Every study done in this day and age is done with an agenda in mind. duh.

Do you really think any group is going to fund a study that doesn't support their position? Do you really think studies like this are pure research? If you do, I have some ocean front property in Colorado you may be interested in.

In all actuality, what I was trying to say, and you evidently missed was.....This debate will not be settled because of the reasons above.

You will defend the study because it supports your position, and I will pick it apart because it doesn't support mine. Metaphorically speaking that is. I am not sure which side of this debate you are on.

So, the most simple and direct answer is not it was not a Bull crap dodge.
_Blixa
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Re: Gay Parents: 11 x more likely to molest and other "goodi

Post by _Blixa »

Sammy Jankins wrote:
Chap wrote:The point of calling a report 'great' when its methodology and conclusions are crap escapes me, unless the point of using that descriptor is to annoy those who read it and make them waste their time dialoging with the string-puller who uses it.


So I was being trolled? Fair enough. Lesson learned. Yahoo bot is a troll or perhaps simply his participation is indishgishable from a troll.
Either way he's a waste of time.


This.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_palerobber
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Re: Gay Parents: 11 x more likely to molest and other "goodi

Post by _palerobber »

hobo1512 wrote:Get a grip.

Any study, and I do mean any is always picked apart for methodology, sample size, funding, etc. The side funding it stands behind it, and the opposing site finds flaws. It really isn't that difficult of a concept is it?

Every study done in this day and age is done with an agenda in mind. duh.

Do you really think any group is going to fund a study that doesn't support their position? Do you really think studies like this are pure research? If you do, I have some ocean front property in Colorado you may be interested in.

In all actuality, what I was trying to say, and you evidently missed was.....This debate will not be settled because of the reasons above.

You will defend the study because it supports your position, and I will pick it apart because it doesn't support mine. Metaphorically speaking that is.


so you were just expressing cynicism. got it.

i don't know what you mean by "this debate". if you mean the debate in this thread, there is none that i can tell. if you mean the larger debate over gay marriage and parenting, you're wrong. it will be settled, and appeals to facts over prejudice will play (have already played) a significant role in that.
_Jaybear
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Re: Gay Parents: 11 x more likely to molest and other "goodi

Post by _Jaybear »

palerobber wrote: i think that what you are saying here would be perfectly reasonable, if the OP had been about a different study -- a study which was a serious attempt to consider the outcomes of children raised by gay vs. hetero parents, though perhaps containing some unintended bias or methodological shortcomings which people on different sides of the gay marriage debate could then argue about in good faith.

i can certainly imagine such a study, but the study referenced in the OP is quite clearly not it. and if you would simply acknowledge that fact then you could stop struggling to explain yourself and others could stop accusing you of trolling and/or talking out of both sides of your mouth.


There are such studies. The problem we have is that all of the studies that make an apples to apples comparison reach the conclusion that children raised by gay parents are not measurable different.

This statement was filed in an amicus brief in the Gollinski Case:
Accordingly, the conclusions by the leading associations of experts in this area reflect a consensus that children raised by lesbian or gay parents do not differ in any important respects from those raised by heterosexual parents.


The amicus brief was filed jointly filed by 1) the American Psychological Association; 2) the California Psychological Association; 3) the American Psychiatric Association; 4) the National Association of Social Workers; and 5) its California Chapter; 6) the American Medical Association; 7) the American Academy of Pediatrics; and 8) the American Psychoanalytic Association.

There is no rational, good faith debate over the question. Of course, that won't stop people like Hobo1512 from expressing a cynical belief that these organizations and leading experts in the field have conspired to set aside the best interest of children in order to advance the cause of gay rights.
_Chap
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Re: Gay Parents: 11 x more likely to molest and other "goodi

Post by _Chap »

Jaybear wrote: ...

The amicus brief was filed jointly filed by 1) the American Psychological Association; 2) the California Psychological Association; 3) the American Psychiatric Association; 4) the National Association of Social Workers; and 5) its California Chapter; 6) the American Medical Association; 7) the American Academy of Pediatrics; and 8) the American Psychoanalytic Association ...



You don't want to pay them guys no mind. They've all got an agenda to turn our children away from the Gospel and make them into homosexuals like they are.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_palerobber
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Re: Gay Parents: 11 x more likely to molest and other "goodi

Post by _palerobber »

Jaybear wrote:There are such studies. The problem we have is that all of the studies that make an apples to apples comparison reach the conclusion that children raised by gay parents are not measurable different.


that's my understanding as well, but again it's not impossible for me to imagine a sound study which does register a slight disadvantage to having gay parents, if for no other reason than the personal prejudice and unequal treatment from the state that such families face in many parts of the country.

the merits of such a study could be debated, but at the same time it would all be academic. there might also be mild disadvantages to having parents from a highly conservative religious minority (all other things being equal), but we've never restricted people's rights on such a basis. so on the legal questions of gay marriage and parental rights there truly is no good faith debate to be had.
_Jaybear
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Re: Gay Parents: 11 x more likely to molest and other "goodi

Post by _Jaybear »

palerobber wrote:that's my understanding as well, but again it's not impossible for me to imagine a sound study which does register a slight disadvantage to having gay parents, if for no other reason than the personal prejudice and unequal treatment from the state that such families face in many parts of the country.

the merits of such a study could be debated, but at the same time it would all be academic. there might also be mild disadvantages to having parents from a highly conservative religious minority (all other things being equal), but we've never restricted people's rights on such a basis. so on the legal questions of gay marriage and parental rights there truly is no good faith debate to be had.


The issue as a red herring. Gay don't need to get married to have and raise children.

The relevant question that could be studied is whether children raised by gay couples who are married fare better than children raised by gay couples who are legally barred from marrying. But I doubt that those that oppose gay marriage want to know the results.

Alternatively, those who claim they are trying to "protect marriage," could study to see if in those states where gay marriage was legal, interest in marriage by heterosexuals declined. Since there is rational reason to believe that gay marriage would have any impact on straight marriages, why would they go to the trouble of commissioning a study which would undermine a meritless argument.
_Milesius
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Re: Gay Parents: 11 x more likely to molest and other "goodi

Post by _Milesius »

Jaybear wrote:
The amicus brief was filed jointly filed by 1) the American Psychological Association; 2) the California Psychological Association; 3) the American Psychiatric Association; 4) the National Association of Social Workers; and 5) its California Chapter; 6) the American Medical Association; 7) the American Academy of Pediatrics; and 8) the American Psychoanalytic Association.

There is no rational, good faith debate over the question. Of course, that won't stop people like Hobo1512 from expressing a cynical belief that these organizations and leading experts in the field have conspired to set aside the best interest of children in order to advance the cause of gay rights.


The confident pronouncements from Jaybear and Chap, neither of whom has demonstrated the slightest intellectual competency in statistics, are precious. Professor Regnerus is absolutely correct when he writes:

Concern has arisen, however, about the methodological quality of many studies focusing on same-sex parents. In particular, most are based on non-random, non-representative data often employing small samples that do not allow for generalization to the larger population of gay and lesbian families (Nock, 2001; Perrin and Committee on Psychosocial Aspects of Child and Family Health, 2002; Redding, 2008). For instance, many published studies on the children of same-sex parents collect data from ‘‘snowball’’ or convenience samples (e.g., Bos et al., 2007; Brewaeys et al., 1997; Fulcher et al., 2008; Sirota,
2009; Vanfraussen et al., 2003). One notable example of this is the National Longitudinal Lesbian Family Study, analyses of which were prominently featured in the media in 2011 (e.g., Huffington Post, 2011). The NLLFS employs a convenience sample, recruited entirely by self-selection from announcements posted ‘‘at lesbian events, in women’s bookstores, and in lesbian newspapers’’ in Boston, Washington, and San Francisco. While I do not wish to downplay the significance of such a
longitudinal study—it is itself quite a feat—this sampling approach is a problem when the goal (or in this case, the practical result and conventional use of its findings) is to generalize to a population. All such samples are biased, often in unknown ways. As a formal sampling method, ‘‘snowball sampling is known to have some serious problems,’’ one expert asserts (Snijders, 1992, p. 59). Indeed, such samples are likely biased toward ‘‘inclusion of those who have many interrelationships with,
or are coupled to, a large number of other individuals’’ (Berg, 1988, p. 531). But apart from the knowledge of individuals’ inclusion probability, unbiased estimation is not possible.
Further, as Nock (2001) entreated, consider the convenience sample recruited from within organizations devoted to seeking rights for gays and lesbians, like the NLLFS sampling strategy. Suppose, for example, that the respondents have higher levels of education than comparable lesbians who do not frequent such events or bookstores, or who live elsewhere.
If such a sample is used for research purposes, then anything that is correlated with educational attainment—like better health, more deliberative parenting, and greater access to social capital and educational opportunities for children—will be biased. Any claims about a population based on a group that does not represent it will be distorted, since its sample
of lesbian parents is less diverse (given what is known about it) than a representative sample would reveal (Baumle
et al., 2009).
To compound the problem, results from nonprobability samples—from which meaningful statistics cannot be generated—are regularly compared with population-level samples of heterosexual parents, which no doubt are comprised of a blend of higher and lower quality parents. For example, Gartrell et al. (2011a,b) inquired about the sexual orientation and behavior of adolescents by comparing data from the National Survey of Family Growth (NSFG) with those in the snowball sample of
youth in the NLLFS. Comparing a population-based sample (the NSFG) to a select sample of youth from same-sex parents does not provide the statistical confidence demanded of good social science. Until now, this has been a primary way in which scholars have collected and evaluated data on same-sex parents. This is not to suggest that snowball samples are inherently
problematic as data-collection techniques, only that they are not adequate for making useful comparisons with samples that are entirely different with regard to selection characteristics. Snowball and various other types of convenience sampling are simply not widely generalizable or comparable to the population of interest as a whole. While researchers themselves commonly
commonly note this important limitation, it is often entirely lost in the translation and transmission of findings by the media to the public.

...

However, small sample sizes can contribute to ‘‘no differences’’ conclusions. It is not surprising that statistically-significant differences would not emerge in studies employing as few as 18 or 33 or 44 cases of respondents with same-sex parents, respectively (Fulcher et al., 2008; Golombok et al., 2003; Wainright and Patterson, 2006). Even analyzing matched samples, as a variety of studies have done, fails to mitigate the challenge of locating statistically-significant differences when the sample size is small. This is a concern in all of social science, but one that is doubly important when there may be motivation to confirm the null hypothesis (that is, that there are in fact no statistically-significant differences between groups).

...

However, the meta-analysis reinforces the profound importance of who is doing the reporting—nearly always volunteers for small studies on a group whose claims about documentable parenting successes are very relevant in recent legislative and judicial debates over rights and legal statuses. Tasker (2010, p. 36) suggests caution:
'Parental self-report, of course, may be biased. It is plausible to argue that, in a prejudiced social climate, lesbian and gay parents may have more at stake in presenting a positive picture. . ..Future studies need to consider using additional sophisticated measures to rule out potential biases. . .'


Professor Regnerus is absolutely correct in these criticisms. (I similarly criticized Gartrell's study before the Regnerus paper was published.) Jaybear, Chap, and others uncritical acceptance of the studies in cited in the APA brief, which are junk, speaks volumes.
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei
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