The Top Ten Happenings in Mopologetics, 2012

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_RockSlider
_Emeritus
Posts: 6752
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:02 am

Re: The Top Ten Happenings in Mopologetics, 2012

Post by _RockSlider »

Kishkumen wrote:I interpreted this to mean that the PR and advertising efforts of the Church cost millions and were viewed as fighting anti-Mormonism. Maybe I was wrong.


Do you suppose that some funds from MI/Dan ended up funding the likes of the "I'm a Mormon" campaign and other TV type advertisements?

Especially in light of Scratch's MI budget cuts intel a year or two back? Was MI self sufficient all along based on Dan bringing in millions in MI donations? Was the excess of their budget consumed upstream of BYU?
_MsJack
_Emeritus
Posts: 4375
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:06 am

Re: The Top Ten Happenings in Mopologetics, 2012

Post by _MsJack »

Kishkumen wrote:At a priesthood meeting I attended a fellow related a story about his experience at the family function of one of the apostles. The apostle apparently said that the Church spends millions of dollars fighting anti-Mormonism.

I interpreted this to mean that the PR and advertising efforts of the Church cost millions and were viewed as fighting anti-Mormonism. Maybe I was wrong.

Whatever the case, doesn't sound like they're getting their money's worth.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

My Blogs: Weighted Glory | Worlds Without End: A Mormon Studies Roundtable | Twitter
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Re: The Top Ten Happenings in Mopologetics, 2012

Post by _harmony »

MsJack wrote:Whatever the case, doesn't sound like they're getting their money's worth.


Wasting money is SOP for the Brethren.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: The Top Ten Happenings in Mopologetics, 2012

Post by _Kishkumen »

RockSlider wrote:Do you suppose that some funds from MI/Dan ended up funding the likes of the "I'm a Mormon" campaign and other TV type advertisements?

Especially in light of Scratch's MI budget cuts intel a year or two back? Was MI self sufficient all along based on Dan bringing in millions in MI donations? Was the excess of their budget consumed upstream of BYU?


I doubt it. My guess is that the LDS Church had much more direct means of funding the advertising and PR that were designed to counter the negative impact of anti-Mormonism. Admittedly, I have no hard information and am only commenting according to what strikes me as most practical.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Doctor Scratch
_Emeritus
Posts: 8025
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:44 pm

Re: The Top Ten Happenings in Mopologetics, 2012

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Dr. Peterson is now claiming, on "Sic et Non" that the Maxwell Institute only ever used 5% of its endowment, which of course begs the question, "How big was the endowment?" Given what Hamblin and others have said, it must be in the 8 or 9 figures: they were funding movies, books, journals, and other projects, and they had a pretty decent-sized staff. Of course, increasing the endowment would have meant that they could have given themselves a bonus or a raise, so I guess that rather easily explains DCP's willingness to court wealthy donors.

At least he's at last willing to admit that they were far, far better funded than the Christian ministries they attacked, ala Midgley's "That Old Cash Nexus."
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: The Top Ten Happenings in Mopologetics, 2012

Post by _Kishkumen »

Daniel Peterson wrote:A word about quantities, though: I’ve seen some online discussion of the budget of the Maxwell Institute. Some, on the basis of no information or of flatly false information, have claimed that it was in the multimillions of dollars annually. This is not true, and never was. But there has, in fact, been talk of millions of dollars donated to the Maxwell Institute, and such donations have, in fact, been given. This, however, is what needs to be understood: Those were donations, by and large, to the Maxwell Institute’s endowment. And the Maxwell Institute, as part of Brigham Young University, has followed the University’s rather conservative policy for the use of that endowment — after all, the University manages the Institute’s endowment — which permits 5% of an endowment’s value to be drawn off each year. (This allows for regular and predictable budget planning. In a good year, any proceeds in excess of 5% are placed right back into the endowment account as an addition to principle; in a bad year, so far as possible, 5% is still permitted to be used for yearly expenses.) Thus, while a million dollars, say, sounds like — and, of course, is — a considerable amount, an endowment of one million dollars only produces $50,000 in useable revenue per annum. That’s very useful, but it’s not really an overwhelming volume of cash.

A few hostile outsiders have imagined me and my former colleagues at the Maxwell Institute living lives of sybaritic ease atop piles of millions of dollars in gold, but this is completely wrong (to say nothing of silly): The Maxwell Institute, at least in its heyday, was publishing two semi-annual journals and an annual journal, as well as a variable number of books (including not only such wonderful but expensive tomes as Royal Skousen’s series regarding the textual history of the Book of Mormon but, also, the volumes of the Middle Eastern Texts Initiative). It was and is its own publishing company, retaining a staff of professional editors. It was sponsoring conferences and lectures, producing films (most of them Mormon-related but some of them not), and engaging in a number of other activities, very commonly not LDS-related, such as the production of a Dead Sea Scrolls database and digitally recovering ancient texts from the Villa of the Papyri at Herculaneum. Moreover, although most of its work was done, at least in the old days, by people employed elsewhere, the Maxwell Institute (formerly FARMS) has long employed and supported a few people — John Gee provides an excellent example — whose work and publications were by no means limited only to Latter-day Saint venues. (For an example of Dr. Gee’s non-LDS-related work that appeared only yesterday, see this.)

Thus, to compare the supposedly vast wealth of the Maxwell Institute to a barely-funded little Mom-and-Pop anti-Mormon Christian ministry, as some have been doing, is misleading at best.


When did anyone ever seriously accuse Peterson et al. of living a life of sybaritic ease? First, you would have to have some real money. Secondly, you would have to have some actual fun.

The argument was always about whether he was a paid apologist. That has been a settled issue for me for quite some time now.

Daniel Peterson wrote:Finally, I’ve seen a couple of discussions about our motivation in calling our new venture Mormon Interpreter. Why, some have wondered, did we choose that title? The consensus view, at least among our critics, appears to be that we chose it as a pathetically childish or, more charitably, as a cheeky and defiant jab at the Maxwell Institute. This way, you see, both are referred to as MI. (Get it?)

A plausible explanation. Except for the facts. First of all, I don’t recall anybody affiliated with the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship ever calling it MI. If anybody did, I don’t remember it. I certainly didn’t do so. To me, it was and is (as above) either the Maxwell Institute or, simply, the Institute.

More fundamentally, though, we don’t call our effort Mormon Interpreter. The journal is called Interpreter: A Journal of Mormon Scripture. And the journal is sponsored by The Interpreter Foundation. It’s pretty hard to get the initials MI out of either of those. (Our URL includes the phrase “Mormon Interpreter,” but that was just a late suggestion from our technical guru, because there are lots of other “interpreters” out there on the web.)


I guess we'll have to ignore the many times it has been called Mormon Interpreter because the website now uses Interpreter: A Journal of Mormon Scripture. Anyway, I distinctly recall it being Mormon Interpreter in the early days of the website. In any case, no one would ever accuse these punsters and acronym artists of doing something as clever as using MI for their own purposes surely.

More importantly---meh.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Doctor Scratch
_Emeritus
Posts: 8025
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:44 pm

Re: The Top Ten Happenings in Mopologetics, 2012

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Hi there, Hon. Rev.

Kishkumen wrote:I guess we'll have to ignore the many times it has been called Mormon Interpreter because the website now uses Interpreter: A Journal of Mormon Scripture. Anyway, I distinctly recall it being Mormon Interpreter in the early days of the website. In any case, no one would ever accuse these punsters and acronym artists of doing something as clever as using MI for their own purposes surely.


You're 100% right, Reverend: it was called "Mormon Interpreter" immediately after Bill Hamblin announced its launch on MDD. It's also called "Mormon Interpreter" in the URL for the Web site. Only a grimly humorless ideologue who hasn't yet learned the value of silence would see the need to argue over this.

That said, Dr. Peterson has responded rather harshly to our comments here. Apparently, he attended his department's annual holiday party last night and drank too much eggnog:

DCP wrote:But I came home to be amused by the responses, elsewhere, to my post from earlier today about the Interpreter Foundation and the Maxwell Institute and their names and finances. (a) One critic suggests, without any supporting evidence, that I was eager to raise money for the Maxwell Institute so that I could pay myself bonuses and give myself raises. (Which, of course, is not only not true but essentially impossible under BYU’s system of compensation.) (b) Another “distinctly recall[s]” that Interpreter: A Journal of Mormon Scripture was originally called Mormon Interpreter when it was first launched. Presumably, in his view, the name has been quietly changed since then. (Which is also false, whatever he may “distinctly recall.”) (c) Yet another anonymous critic claims that I actually hate the name Maxwell Institute and that I refused to use it until his repeated message board rebukes of me compelled me to start using it. Or something like that. (Actually, I knew Elder Maxwell reasonably well, admired him enormously, have known his son since before my mission, have come to know and like several members of his family, and may well have actually been the first to suggest the idea of asking permission to rename our organization, posthumously, after him.)
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Re: The Top Ten Happenings in Mopologetics, 2012

Post by _harmony »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
DCP wrote:But I came home to be amused by the responses, elsewhere, to my post from earlier today about the Interpreter Foundation and the Maxwell Institute and their names and finances. (a) One critic suggests, without any supporting evidence, that I was eager to raise money for the Maxwell Institute so that I could pay myself bonuses and give myself raises. (Which, of course, is not only not true but essentially impossible under BYU’s system of compensation.) (b) Another “distinctly recall[s]” that Interpreter: A Journal of Mormon Scripture was originally called Mormon Interpreter when it was first launched. Presumably, in his view, the name has been quietly changed since then. (Which is also false, whatever he may “distinctly recall.”) (c) Yet another anonymous critic claims that I actually hate the name Maxwell Institute and that I refused to use it until his repeated message board rebukes of me compelled me to start using it. Or something like that. (Actually, I knew Elder Maxwell reasonably well, admired him enormously, have known his son since before my mission, have come to know and like several members of his family, and may well have actually been the first to suggest the idea of asking permission to rename our organization, posthumously, after him.)


Good grief. Seriously? Does he have nothing else to do but read this message board?
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Philo Sofee
_Emeritus
Posts: 6660
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:04 am

Re: The Top Ten Happenings in Mopologetics, 2012

Post by _Philo Sofee »

DCP wrote:But I came home to be amused by the responses, elsewhere, to my post from earlier today about the Interpreter Foundation and the Maxwell Institute and their names and finances. (a) One critic suggests, without any supporting evidence, that I was eager to raise money for the Maxwell Institute so that I could pay myself bonuses and give myself raises. (Which, of course, is not only not true but essentially impossible under BYU’s system of compensation.) (b) Another “distinctly recall[s]” that Interpreter: A Journal of Mormon Scripture was originally called Mormon Interpreter when it was first launched. Presumably, in his view, the name has been quietly changed since then. (Which is also false, whatever he may “distinctly recall.”) (c) Yet another anonymous critic claims that I actually hate the name Maxwell Institute and that I refused to use it until his repeated message board rebukes of me compelled me to start using it. Or something like that. (Actually, I knew Elder Maxwell reasonably well, admired him enormously, have known his son since before my mission, have come to know and like several members of his family, and may well have actually been the first to suggest the idea of asking permission to rename our organization, posthumously, after him.)

Good grief. Seriously? Does he have nothing else to do but read this message board?


He gets more stimulation for ideas to write on from here than he ever will in church. Does that honestly surprise anyone? Here at least the issues are openly discussed and the real thinking about the real problems arise. There is nothing euphemistically referred to here, or soft peddled, or ignored. Were he to simply try as hard as he might to gain something significant from Sunday School or General Conference, he would literally be bankrupt.
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: The Top Ten Happenings in Mopologetics, 2012

Post by _Kishkumen »

Who knew my recollection, which is confirmed by Hamblin's past posts and the URL, would be so provocative as to elicit vigorous denials from Sic et Non?

LOL.

As usual, a certain BYU professor doth protest too loudly.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
Post Reply