Man is as intelligent as God

[_DrW]

Tobin,

Pretty much what I expected. You don't clarify, explain, or defend, because you can't.

Unfortunately for Mormonism, others have already made up their own minds. From all appearances, it looks as though about 99% of the population of the US does not believe Joseph Smith's BS.

(There are about six million members in the US, of which less than 40% believe strongly enough to be active in the Church. This means that there are likely only about 2.5 million or so Mormons who believe the Joseph Smith story. And I have seen surveys taken among faithful attending members that indicate that some 50% will admit to not believing the Joseph Smith story when allowed to respond anonymously.)

Anyway, we shall see how many of those who comment on this board are convinced by Joseph Smith's make it up as you go along cosmogony.

I fail to see what any of that has to do with the topic or assertions made by either you or Mittens. I've provided the actual quote and accurately stated what it clearly says. When or if you can direct your bizarre comments towards what is actually the topic and not wander if in a million different directions, please let me know. Until then, I'll just ignore what you have to say since it is pointless and incoherent non-sense.

Tobin,

In fact, you fail to see a great deal. You refused to provide any clarification as to what Joseph Smith meant by his use of the term intelligences, or even definitions of this and other terms used in Joseph Smith's internally inconsistent and self contradictory mumbo jumbo.

You stated that Smith's statements can stand on their own. I simply pointed out how ineffective this strategy has been up to now (about 99% ineffective to be exact).

[_DrW]

Tobin,

Since you have stated that you fail to see, here are but two of a myriad of both factual and logical problems with Joseph Smith's "teachings" as set forth in the few Sections that you quoted in your post above.

D&C Section 131:7

There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes--

From your post above (Section Six 1843-44, p.353)

The intelligence of spirits had not beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal [co-eternal] with our Father in heaven.

If spirits are matter, then there could have not been any spirits before the singularity from which the Universe evolved some 13.75 billion years ago. Therefore, spirit is not eternal. (In fact, it is clear that there can be no such thing as "material spirit". The concept is self-contradictory.)

From your post Section Six 1843-44, p.351

We say that God himself is a self-existent being. Who told you so? It is correct enough; but how did it get into you heads? Who told you that man did not exist in like manner upon the same principles? Man does exist upon the same principles.

From this we are apparently to conclude that man exists on the same principles as God, that is, as self-existent beings (read the quote you provided). If man is self-existent as is God, then why does man need to be created by God?

Mormonism and Mormon doctrine is riddled with these kinds of ridiculous, self-contradictory, doublethink claims and statements. Like I said, overall, it is simply mumbo jumbo (or if you prefer, woo woo).

[_Tobin]

DrW,

Again it is the same problem I've already noted about you. You can't read something and comprehend it. Joseph Smith is talking about the mind or "intelligences of spirits". Those are what have always existed in some form. In modern terms, we are trying to achieve something similar in the form of A.I.. Joseph Smith maintains such minds already exist and have always existed. Spirits are containers for such minds much as a computer would be a container for the mind of an A.I..

[_DrW]

DrW,

Again it is the same problem I've already noted about you. You can't read something and comprehend it. Joseph Smith is talking about the mind or "intelligences of spirits". Those are what have always existed in some form. In modern terms, we are trying to achieve something similar in the form of A.I.. Joseph Smith maintains such minds already exist and have always existed. Spirits are containers for such minds much as a computer would be a container for the mind of an A.I..

Tobin,

How is it possible that these minds or "intelligence of spirits" have always existed when this entire universe has only existed for about 13.75 billion years?

(Again, mumbo jumbo and woo woo.)

[_Tobin]

DrW,

Again it is the same problem I've already noted about you. You can't read something and comprehend it. Joseph Smith is talking about the mind or "intelligences of spirits". Those are what have always existed in some form. In modern terms, we are trying to achieve something similar in the form of A.I.. Joseph Smith maintains such minds already exist and have always existed. Spirits are containers for such minds much as a computer would be a container for the mind of an A.I..

Tobin,

How is it possible that these minds or "intelligence of spirits" have always existed when this entire universe has only existed for about 13.75 billion years?

(Again, mumbo jumbo and woo woo.)

Our universe, in its current form since the Big Bang, has only existed for 14 billion years. I highly doubt our universe is the only universe that exists or has existed and the Big Bang is likely just one of those other universes colliding with ours - the resulting explosion of energy being what we see as the Big Bang. It is also likely that sufficiently advanced life can transcend universes. It most certainly would be eternal in nature (even now we can see a point where our medical science will allow us to live perpetually in the future). The only reason none of this makes any sense to you is your mind (and reading skills) are so very limited.

[_DrW]

Our universe, in its current form since the Big Bang, has only existed for 14 billion years. I highly doubt our universe is the only universe that exists or has existed and the Big Bang is likely just one of those other universes colliding with ours - the resulting explosion of energy being what we see as the Big Bang. It is also likely that sufficiently advanced life can transcend universes. It most certainly would be eternal in nature (even now we can see a point where our medical science will allow us to live perpetually in the future). The only reason none of this makes any sense to you is your mind (and reading skills) are so very limited.

Tobin,

The difference between you and me is that when you read LDS woo woo, you tend to believe it. When I read it, I am skeptical and look for supporting evidence (which seldom, if ever, exists).

In your writing on this thread and elsewhere, you demonstrate few, if any, critical thinking skills and your ability to apply simple logic seems to be lacking entirely. Your understanding of science and natural law is clearly inadequate, and you have a strong tendency to engage in magical thinking.

For example, your explanation of the Big Bang above is nothing short of laughable. If you would have anyone here believe otherwise, then you should provide peer reviewed references.

You seem to have no clue as to the energy that would be required to even theoretically travel between universes. And if you believe that medical science is at a point where we can realistically foresee humans living forever, then you are delusional.

None of what you say here is true, Tobin. None of it is scientifically verifiable. None of it is even theoretically plausible. It represents magical thinking of the worst kind - the kind that faithful Mormons must engage in to keep their delusional belief system from crumbling down around them.

With my reading and comprehension skills, limited as they are, I have nonetheless been able to write and publish more than 100 peer reviewed scientific papers reporting on my original research in the areas of life sciences, chemistry, and engineering, as well as several books and some two dozen patents.

My claim that your critical thinking skills and scientific knowledge and understanding are inadequate to the task you have set yourself is based on years of experience in dealing with such problems in students, interns and junior staff in the US and overseas.

Some of them did not make the grade and had to be failed, fired, or sent home.
I can spot 'em a mile away, Tobin, and your writings definitely fit the pattern.

[_Tobin]

DrW,

Again, just more incoherent rambling from you. Here are two references on the possibilities I outlined to you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immortality

In particular, you should pay attention to this:

Certain scientists, futurists, and philosophers, have theorized about the immortality of the material human body, and advocate that human immortality is achievable in the first few decades of the 21st century, while other advocates believe that life extension is a more achievable goal in the short term, with immortality awaiting further research breakthroughs into an indefinite future. Aubrey de Grey, a researcher who has developed a series of biomedical rejuvenation strategies to reverse human aging (called SENS), believes that his proposed plan for ending aging may be implementable in two or three decades.[5] The absence of aging would provide humans with biological immortality, but not invulnerability to death by physical trauma.

And your post below is a perfect example of what I've noted about you. You have a very limited mind and lack reading comprehension skills(probably from doing little reading on your own). You just are ignorant of a great deal of what may be possible and that is why you discount it as magic (again, due to your limitations).

[_Franktalk]

DrW,

I have to give you credit. You are very consistent. You come to a discussion in which things of the spirit are talked about and you use science which rejects the unseen (unless it is 90% of the universe, dark mass and energy). Then you reject all things spiritual based on your closeted view of reality.

Maybe instead of trying to twist terms used in spiritual talks you would be so kind as to actually use the terms in the manner that those who accept this expanded reality use them. Since you reject all things spiritual how can you judge or attempt to redefine terms in any meaningful way. To anyone with a spiritual bone you appear as a crazy man waving his arms around. It is so sad. But I am sure you feel superior in your own eyes. Rest assured in my eyes I would use different terms to describe you.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Tobin,

You need to do a better job at substantiating your theories, rather than postulating some vague notion that's connected with a scientific theory that then can somehow link with your magical Mormon view.

Literally, you need to state a theory, and then back it up with fact. When that fails, it'd be helpful to show us where you lack factual basis for your theories. At that point you'd build credibility by simply acknowledging a lack of knowledge or understanding on a subject.

You simply asserting something is so and somehow tying it to a theory you clearly don't understand only serves to undermine the very point you're attempting to make.

V/R
Dr. Cam

[_Tobin]

Franktalk,

DrW doesn't even come equipped with modern understanding science to look into these topics. After numerous discussions with him, it has become clear to me that he has a staggering lack of knowledge about current scientific thought on a variety of topics. As I've noted in this thread, the reason he can't grasp what Joseph Smith is talking about or understand it is precisely because he is not equipped to. He brings a rather poor understanding of science mixed with poor reading comprehension skills to these topics, tries to apply that, and fails completely. And as you said, it is rather funny and sad at the same time.