Guns - the actual truth!

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_Kevin Graham
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Re: Guns - the actual truth!

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Most car accidents are the fault of the driver, in which case the government steps in and punishes those people or at least regulates what kind of people can drive a car. For example, drunk driving usually results in a revoked license and possibly jail time. The government also regulates what kinds of cars can be driven on the public roads (i.e. race cars are prohibited because of the safety hazards they pose). So why are the Right Wingers so afraid of having the same things done with respect to gun ownership?

Again, no one of the left is suggesting the government break down everyone's doors and take guns from law abiding citizens. Once this fact is established, and their paranoia shown to be without merit, what could possibly be their argument against stronger gun laws?
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Guns - the actual truth!

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Kevin Graham wrote:Most car accidents are the fault of the driver, in which case the government steps in and punishes those people or at least regulates what kind of people can drive a car. For example, drunk driving usually results in a revoked license and possibly jail time. The government also regulates what kinds of cars can be driven on the public roads (i.e. race cars are prohibited because of the safety hazards they pose). So why are the Right Wingers so afraid of having the same things done with respect to gun ownership?

Again, no one of the left is suggesting the government break down everyone's doors and take guns from law abiding citizens. Once this fact is established, and their paranoia shown to be without merit, what could possibly be their argument against stronger gun laws?


That current gun laws didn't prevent that psychotic kid from retrieving his mother's unsecured firearms and killing those children? And current gun laws didn't prevent that psychotic from entering a movie theater and shooting those people? Nor did it prevent Columbine. Nor do they prevent the access to and use of firearms in their various forms from being used to commit untold amounts of crime.

The real question is does violent crime decrease when access to guns goes away? I'm not sure it does (see the Harvard paper I posted earlier). However, it takes away an effective measure of self-defense from those who aren't criminal.

All I know if I have an intruder enter my home I'd rather have the option to shoot him with my dual-safety Springfield XD .40, of which I owned and raised two girls around (who didn't kill anyone nor commit suicide with said weapon), than have to A) barricade myself in a room dialing 911, or B) fight hand-to-hand (unless it's Will Schryver, then I'm ok with that).

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Guns - the actual truth!

Post by _Kevin Graham »

That current gun laws didn't prevent that psychotic kid from retrieving his mother's unsecured firearms and killing those children?

You're right. But this only suggests that current gun laws aren't tough enough. Maybe had the government stepped in earlier and prevented parents to own multiple firearms when they have children with mental illnesses. Of course I'm not saying tougher laws can prevent any gun related tragedy, because it can't. I'm just saying there are measures we can take to keep our children safer.
And current gun laws didn't prevent that psychotic from entering a movie theater and shooting those people? Nor did it prevent Columbine. Nor do they prevent the access to and use of firearms in their various forms from being used to commit untold amounts of crime.

You're right. So what do you propose as a solution? The only solution being proposed by the far Right is simply more guns. But then we can turn the same kind of argument around on them and point out that armed guards at Virginia Tech didn't prevent that kid from killing a dozen students.
The real question is does violent crime decrease when access to guns goes away?

I don't think that's the question at all. There will always be violent crime with or without guns. The problem with guns is that some guns are designed to kill a large number of people in a short amount of time. For example when Congresswoman Giffords was shot in public, the lunatic was armed with a semi-automatic Glock with a 33 round magazine. Why are those kinds of guns legal? They are designed to kill many people in a short amount of time. This is hardly ideal for someone hunting or defending themselves from an intruder.
I'm not sure it does (see the Harvard paper I posted earlier). However, it takes away an effective measure of self-defense from those who aren't criminal.

Who is proposing that?
All I know if I have an intruder enter my home

What do you think the chances are of you having an intruder in your home? A well secured home wouldn't have an intruder. With the alarm system we have it is virtually impossible. We also have a dog who goes nuts if someone comes in our yard. Cell phone technology prevents an an "intruder" from cutting the phone lines like you see in the movies, so it isn't like you're going to be unable call the police if someone is trying to enter your home. My wife called the cops one night when a racoon was on our back porch and they were here within minutes.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Guns - the actual truth!

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Kevin Graham wrote:You're right. But this only suggests that current gun laws aren't tough enough. Maybe had the government stepped in earlier and prevented parents to own multiple firearms when they have children with mental illnesses. Of course I'm not saying tougher laws can prevent any gun related tragedy, because it can't. I'm just saying there are measures we can take to keep our children safer.

Voof. How do you propose denying citizens who have mentally ill children the right to own a gun? I'd be interested how you propose not-tougher laws or other measures that can prevent gun-related tragedies.

You're right. So what do you propose as a solution? The only solution being proposed by the far Right is simply more guns. But then we can turn the same kind of argument around on them and point out that armed guards at Virginia Tech didn't prevent that kid from killing a dozen students.

I don't propose a solution because it's unrealistic. However, in my utopia gun ownership would be severely restricted, and monitored (reserved for sportsmen, responders, military personnel, etc...). Anyone possessing an unregistered firearm would face heavy escalating fines with eventual jail time.

I don't think that's the question at all. There will always be violent crime with or without guns. The problem with guns is that some guns are designed to kill a large number of people in a short amount of time. For example when Congresswoman Giffords was shot in public, the lunatic was armed with a semi-automatic Glock with a 33 round magazine. Why are those kinds of guns legal? They are designed to kill many people in a short amount of time. This is hardly ideal for someone hunting or defending themselves from an intruder.

Well, there's always the romantic notion that a well-armed population is harder to oppress, but I tend to think you get better results from entitlements, and keeping people stupid (see Droopy as exhibit A). That said, I still believe that violence is at the heart of the matter, not arming or disarming people. The Soviet Union had three times our rate of homicide and suicide, and they were a disarmed population.

Who is proposing that?

Please don't be disingenuous. We both know if the Leftists had their way the population would be disarmed a la Britain.

What do you think the chances are of you having an intruder in your home?

About the same odds you experienced.

A well secured home wouldn't have an intruder. With the alarm system we have it is virtually impossible. We also have a dog who goes nuts if someone comes in our yard. Cell phone technology prevents an an "intruder" from cutting the phone lines like you see in the movies, so it isn't like you're going to be unable call the police if someone is trying to enter your home. My wife called the cops one night when a racoon was on our back porch and they were here within minutes.

I've lived in socioeconomically diverse neighborhoods in addition to socioeconomically advantaged ones, and am choosing to buy property in a socioeconomically depressed neighborhood to take advantage of a real estate opportunity. Police may or may not respond to a private security service when notified (I know, I have had historical discussions with both), my dogs are friendly, and the population surrounding my soon-to-be home is very diverse. I'd prefer my spouse or myself to be armed when at home, or if we choose when we're out and about.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_bcspace
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Re: Guns - the actual truth!

Post by _bcspace »

Interesting how the Left has presided over a massive orgy of death, 50 millions abortions since 1973 and only a tiny tiny percentage of them for the reason of life of the mother, and how that dovetails with the mentality of preventing someone from having the ability to defend their children at home or at school or in the mall.
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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Guns - the actual truth!

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

bcspace wrote:Interesting how the Left has presided over a massive orgy of death, 50 millions abortions since 1973 and only a tiny tiny percentage of them for the reason of life of the mother, and how that dovetails with the mentality of preventing someone from having the ability to defend their children at home or at school or in the mall.


Well, if you want to get nit picky, your god aborts billions of fertilized eggs, ie, fetuses, per year. Additionally, your god kills everything. And your Conservatives generally endorse the death penalty. And your god created Evil. He also collaborated with Satan on occasion. He also kicked out a third of the host of heaven for being communists.

That said, pro-Choice Republicans:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican ... for_Choice

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republicans_for_Choice

http://www.gopchoice.org/about/

http://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/ ... ns-740.htm

I could probably list off dozens of sites, but you get the point... Or... Do yooooooou... Hrm.

V/R
Dr. Cam
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Guns - the actual truth!

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Kevin,

The UK has a murder rate of 11.5 versus the US murder rate of 4.7 (source: FBI). Clearly gun control hasn't made a significant impact on their murder rate when just in 2002 their murder rated peaked at 17.3.

Since guns don't seem to the be inherent cause of the increase or decrease of violent crime, what measures do you propose to combat violent crime in the US to ensure a long-term decrease in its occurrence while ensure Americans enjoy their rights under the 2nd Amendment?

V/R
Dr. Cam
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Droopy
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Re: Guns - the actual truth!

Post by _Droopy »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Kevin,

The UK has a murder rate of 11.5 versus the US murder rate of 4.7 (source: FBI). Clearly gun control hasn't made a significant impact on their murder rate when just in 2002 their murder rated peaked at 17.3.

Since guns don't seem to the be inherent cause of the increase or decrease of violent crime, what measures do you propose to combat violent crime in the US to ensure a long-term decrease in its occurrence while ensure Americans enjoy their rights under the 2nd Amendment?

V/R
Dr. Cam


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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Guns - the actual truth!

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Droopy wrote:The panoptic society


Um. Wat.
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Quasimodo
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Re: Guns - the actual truth!

Post by _Quasimodo »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Kevin,

The UK has a murder rate of 11.5 versus the US murder rate of 4.7 (source: FBI). Clearly gun control hasn't made a significant impact on their murder rate when just in 2002 their murder rated peaked at 17.3.

Since guns don't seem to the be inherent cause of the increase or decrease of violent crime, what measures do you propose to combat violent crime in the US to ensure a long-term decrease in its occurrence while ensure Americans enjoy their rights under the 2nd Amendment?

V/R
Dr. Cam


Hang on, Cam. The stats I've seen on the web look mostly like this:

In the US – population 311.5 million (1) – there were an estimated 13,756 murders in 2009 (2), a rate of about 5.0 per 100,000 (3). Of these 9,203 were carried out with a firearm.

In the UK – population 56.1 million (4) – there were an estimated 550 murders in 2011-12 (5), a rate of about 1.4 per 100,000. Of these 39 were carried out with a firearm (6).


A big difference from what you stated.

It seems that the murder rate is about the same (1.4) for all of Europe.

Interesting that there were 9,203 murders in the U.S committed with guns. 39 in the U.K.

Adjusted for population, that's 9,203 gun murders in the U.S. verses 215 gun murders for the U.K. A difference of 8988. Hmmm?
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