Another Perspective

[_Doctor Scratch]

I don't think McWhorter's article was "politically incorrect." I don't think that anybody--"leftist" or conservative--is going to argue against the claim that rap and hip-hop feature violent, "gangsta," or "thuggish" themes. That's kind of a moot and redundant point.

But what you really seem to be saying (and wanting McWhorter to say for you) is this:

have the power to determine the general character of the country and its people.

Do you really think that hip-hip is "the general character" of the country?

[_EAllusion]

I don't know why McWhorter thinks that P. Diddy's main persona is "thuggish."

The article was written in 2003 where this would've been more at home. It's not something McWhorter would write of him right now since he has reworked his public persona so extensively. McWhorter's broader views on the subject are more similar to mine than Droopy's, which tells you how much nuance Droopy is reading here. I referenced McWhorter because he's an author I've read over the last decade a fair amount, including his 2008 book on this subject. I find him uneven, which is praise given his role as a provocateur. I think we agree that it's just music and shouldn't have breathed into it puffed up narratives about being the voice of the streets or whatever. We differ in how much we fault it for not being something more.

[_Droopy]

I don't think McWhorter's article was "politically incorrect." I don't think that anybody--"leftist" or conservative--is going to argue against the claim that rap and hip-hop feature violent, "gangsta," or "thuggish" themes. That's kind of a moot and redundant point.

But for the Left, as well represented in this forum, all that thuggishness is part of the traditional radical chic attitudes that have been attached to black underclass culture, style, and values since the era of the original Black Panthers, and regardless of whether or not they are understood to be thuggish, they are always excused, nodded and winked at, or, in more than a few cases, extolled as the "authentic" pose and style of that which is "black." This, indeed, is a major aspect of what Thomas Chatterton Williams is critiquing in his book and interview.

Do you really think that hip-hip is "the general character" of the country?

Is that what I said? If you'll go back and look at that post, you will see that the context is the ascendency of the cultural Left as the dominant intellectual and political force within the major institutions of society, including political, not about Hip-Hop (although the glorification and politically correct removal of that culture from the possibility of principled criticism is very much a part of that ascendency).

[_Doctor Scratch]

I don't think McWhorter's article was "politically incorrect." I don't think that anybody--"leftist" or conservative--is going to argue against the claim that rap and hip-hop feature violent, "gangsta," or "thuggish" themes. That's kind of a moot and redundant point.

But for the Left, as well represented in this forum, all that thuggishness is part of the traditional radical chic attitudes

"Traditional radical"? Perhaps you'd care to explain how something can simultaneously be "traditional" and "radical"?

that have been attached to black underclass culture, style, and values since the era of the original Black Panthers,

Kind of a gross overstatement, don't you think? And in any case, you're doing a pretty poor job with your evidence. E.g., the P. Diddy stuff you cited is as obsessed with sex and wealth as "thuggishness" (even more so, I would argue--this is Puffy we're talking about, after all). Do you view rampant materialism and capitalistic lust as part of the problem here, too?

and regardless of whether or not they are understood to be thuggish, they are always excused, nodded and winked at, or, in more than a few cases, extolled as the "authentic" pose and style of that which is "black."

By whom? A lot of the rappers fell under scrutiny by various law enforcement and/or governmental agencies. Wasn't it Dick Cheney's wife who read Eminem lyrics aloud in Congress as a means of making a point? How many parents and conservative leaders have openly condemned this stuff as harmful--or any race? I just don't get how/why you think this stuff is "always excused." That's an extremist and unsupportable claim.

Do you really think that hip-hip is "the general character" of the country?

Is that what I said? If you'll go back and look at that post, you will see that the context is the ascendency of the cultural Left as the dominant intellectual and political force within the major institutions of society, including political, not about Hip-Hop (although the glorification and politically correct removal of that culture from the possibility of principled criticism is very much a part of that ascendency).

Uh, no. The context is you citing a bunch of P. Diddy lyrics and doing zero interpretation of them.

[_Doctor Scratch]

I don't know why McWhorter thinks that P. Diddy's main persona is "thuggish."

The article was written in 2003 where this would've been more at home. It's not something McWhorter would write of him right now since he has reworked his public persona so extensively. McWhorter's broader views on the subject are more similar to mine than Droopy's, which tells you how much nuance Droopy is reading here. I referenced McWhorter because he's an author I've read over the last decade a fair amount, including his 2008 book on this subject. I find him uneven, which is praise given his role as a provocateur. I think we agree that it's just music and shouldn't have breathed into it puffed up narratives about being the voice of the streets or whatever. We differ in how much we fault it for not being something more.

Ah, okay. This makes a lot more sense; thanks, EA.

[_Droopy]

The article was written in 2003 where this would've been more at home. It's not something McWhorter would write of him right now since he has reworked his public persona so extensively.

Irrelevant. P. Diddy was a major part of this genre, and bears as much responsibility, in a historical context, for its effects and influence as anybody else.

McWhorter's broader views on the subject are more similar to mine than Droopy's, which tells you how much nuance Droopy is reading here.

More pseudo-sophisticated Piers Morganesque culture snobbery. Do you speak in an upper-crust British accent too, E?

Perhaps then you could extract something from that McWhorter essay and put it up here for analysis. Then we'll compare and contrast what I think and what McWhorter thinks with what you think, and let's see if you can back up your claim here.

I referenced McWhorter because he's an author I've read over the last decade a fair amount, including his 2008 book on this subject. I find him uneven, which is praise given his role as a provocateur.

Do you realize that it is not me, but you who is a racist, E? Do your realize that black people are your distant, exotic, indigenous noble savages and moral mascots who, but for your noble leftist ministrations, would still be being sold on auction blocks by people like Mitt Romney?

Your racism is, however, the "good" racism. Its the racism of the secularist liberal man's burden, which used to be the "white man's burden," back in the old days of the "bad" kind of racism.

Its the racism that exists among so many on the Left as a self-congratulatory paean to their own moral and intellectual hubris.

[_Droopy]

"Traditional radical"? Perhaps you'd care to explain how something can simultaneously be "traditional" and "radical"?

You aren't this dense, Scratch. Stop it.

that have been attached to black underclass culture, style, and values since the era of the original Black Panthers,

Kind of a gross overstatement, don't you think?

No, its a completely accurate and substantive representation to anyone who has studied and analyzed that era to the degree I have ( I also lived through it). You might want to ask the leading intellectual and historian of the Left in America, David Horowitz, whether or not the concept of "radical chic" was not a deeply internalized psychological characteristic of the late sixties/early seventies Left regarding its various "vanguard" identity groups.

And in any case, you're doing a pretty poor job with your evidence. E.g., the P. Diddy stuff you cited is as obsessed with sex and wealth as "thuggishness"

And since when was inner city underclass psychology and culture not obsessed with sex and money? Or white, working class hard rock/heavy metal culture and music not similarly obsessed?

(even more so, I would argue--this is Puffy we're talking about, after all). Do you view rampant materialism and capitalistic lust as part of the problem here, too?

Chinese and Japanese immigrants, who faced very similar discrimination, suspicion, and second class citizenship, each in thier own time, have become among the most successful minority groups in America (and in other places they have settled). Where is their underclass? Where is the American-Chinese thug culture, with its pounds of gold chains, unlaced high tops, bitches and hos, pants down around the thighs, and sideways baseball caps?

Where is the Jewish gangsta rap? Where is the Laotion Snoop Dog?

So, to answer your question, yes, rampant materialism (the "capitalism" reference is meaningless, so I won't bother with it here) is a part of it, as it is for many problems among white Americans and American culture generally. "Capitalism" has nothing to do with it (interesting how liberals must dance all over the ballroom floor as debates such as this progress. First, according to EA and Beastie (and most on the Left), its poverty that produces gangsta rap, Hip-Hop culture, and underclass values, Hip-Hop being the authentic voice and expression of that experience. Next, its rampant materialism and capitalist "lust." Why then, I wonder, doesn't Bill Gates dress like Tupac Shakur?)

and regardless of whether or not they are understood to be thuggish, they are always excused, nodded and winked at, or, in more than a few cases, extolled as the "authentic" pose and style of that which is "black."

By whom?

By virtually the entire academic, media, and entertainment world Left. By, in other words, "the Anointed," or, to use Andrew Codevilla's term, "the ruling class."

A lot of the rappers fell under scrutiny by various law enforcement and/or governmental agencies.

I wonder why, Scratch?

Wasn't it Dick Cheney's wife who read Eminem lyrics aloud in Congress as a means of making a point?

Have you ever read them, Scratch? Charlton Heston read Ice Tea's lyrics in person to the suits who made and marketed his albums, the the moral and intellectual learning curve there was as flat as it is in here.

How many parents and conservative leaders have openly condemned this stuff as harmful--or any race? I just don't get how/why you think this stuff is "always excused." That's an extremist and unsupportable claim.

Its social history for which countless examples could be produced with ease. I actually don't think you're really even cognizant of this issue and its various aspects, or that you've really thought very much about it.

Uh, no. The context is you citing a bunch of P. Diddy lyrics and doing zero interpretation of them.

I still don't see how you could have pulled a claim that I think the entire country has been Hip-Hopized (although, in a sense, this argument can be made) from these threads. This entire meltdown (heh heh...) began with a thread about a gangster/Hip-Hop artist called The Game, who has produced a new album of welfare underclass doggeral with an album cover blaspheming and trivializing Christian (primarily Catholic) symbolism and belierfs. Michelle Malkin reported it, and The Game melted down, calling her a "bitch," demanding an apology to figuratively all black people, and unleasing his fans on her, who used terms far less flattering, including the threat of rape.

There are deep and hugely disproportionate social pathologies among the American black population that need to be - finally and without flinching - opened to critique, criticism, and ethical standard setting.

It can't go on within that community, nor can any similar attitudes and values be tolerated among the white majority any longer who have been unraveling under very much the same attitudinal, psychological, and ideological yoke since the since roughly the early seventies and which has similar intellectual, if not specifically cultural origins. The entire thing is eventually going to come crashing down. It is not civilizationally sustainable.

[_Doctor Scratch]

"Traditional radical"? Perhaps you'd care to explain how something can simultaneously be "traditional" and "radical"?

You aren't this dense, Scratch. Stop it.

So you won't/can't explain it. Okay.

No, its a completely accurate and substantive representation to anyone who has studied and analyzed that era to the degree I have ( I also lived through it). You might want to ask the leading intellectual and historian of the Left in America, David Horowitz, whether or not the concept of "radical chic" was not a deeply internalized psychological characteristic of the late sixties/early seventies Left regarding its various "vanguard" identity groups.

??? "Radical chic" has been attached to "the black underclass" since the '60s and '70s? Or to black militancy? Or what? In what sense do you think that what you call "the black underclass" is "chic"? Or, perhaps more accurately, in what way/sense has "the Left" caused it to seem "chic"?

And in any case, you're doing a pretty poor job with your evidence. E.g., the P. Diddy stuff you cited is as obsessed with sex and wealth as "thuggishness"

And since when was inner city underclass psychology and culture not obsessed with sex and money? Or white, working class hard rock/heavy metal culture and music not similarly obsessed?

Well, Droopy: you're missing my point. I was asking about "thuggishness," you know?

(even more so, I would argue--this is Puffy we're talking about, after all). Do you view rampant materialism and capitalistic lust as part of the problem here, too?

Chinese and Japanese immigrants, who faced very similar discrimination, suspicion, and second class citizenship, each in thier own time, have become among the most successful minority groups in America (and in other places they have settled).

Eh, this just isn't a very good comparison, Droopy. Asian Americans have indeed faced challenges and discrimination and so forth, but to compare that with the African American experience--even in a very general way--is hugely problematic.

Where is their underclass?

Working extremely difficult blue-collar jobs, in some cases.

Where is the American-Chinese thug culture, with its pounds of gold chains, unlaced high tops, bitches and hos, pants down around the thighs, and sideways baseball caps?

It's out there, sort of. Have you ever heard of Eddie Huang?:



But it's kind of beside the point, because what is the use in making these comparisions?

Where is the Jewish gangsta rap? Where is the Laotion Snoop Dog?

Where are the Mormon Beethovens and Michealangelos? Where are the LDS Abraham Lincolns and Aristotles? You see what I mean? It's not hard to make unfavorable comparisons like this, regardless of what group you're talking about. It does nothing to demonstrate some inherent characteristic or quality.

So, to answer your question, yes, rampant materialism (the "capitalism" reference is meaningless, so I won't bother with it here) is a part of it, as it is for many problems among white Americans and American culture generally. "Capitalism" has nothing to do with it (interesting how liberals must dance all over the ballroom floor as debates such as this progress. First, according to EA and Beastie (and most on the Left), its poverty that produces gangsta rap, Hip-Hop culture, and underclass values, Hip-Hop being the authentic voice and expression of that experience. Next, its rampant materialism and capitalist "lust." Why then, I wonder, doesn't Bill Gates dress like Tupac Shakur?)

It's not hard to understand, Droopy: if you're poor, lavish wealth and luxury really seem pretty desireable. But, then, you have been missing the point I was making all along, which is that you didn't do a very good job of demonstrating the "thuggish" aspect of hip-hop.

By virtually the entire academic, media, and entertainment world Left. By, in other words, "the Anointed," or, to use Andrew Codevilla's term, "the ruling class."

That's not true at all. If you look around a bit, you'll find all kinds of "Leftist" scholarship that's critical of the hyper-materialism and misogyny in certain kinds of hip-hop. Dig around, Droopy: I'm sure you can find some radical Feminist critics that magically agree with your views.

A lot of the rappers fell under scrutiny by various law enforcement and/or governmental agencies.

I wonder why, Scratch?

Because they scared the "white ruling class."

Wasn't it Dick Cheney's wife who read Eminem lyrics aloud in Congress as a means of making a point?

Have you ever read them, Scratch? Charlton Heston read Ice Tea's lyrics in person to the suits who made and marketed his albums, the the moral and intellectual learning curve there was as flat as it is in here.

Yes, I've read them. Have you read Lonesome Dove or Blood Meridian? How about Catcher in the Rye?

How many parents and conservative leaders have openly condemned this stuff as harmful--or any race? I just don't get how/why you think this stuff is "always excused." That's an extremist and unsupportable claim.

Its social history for which countless examples could be produced with ease.

Then do it.

Uh, no. The context is you citing a bunch of P. Diddy lyrics and doing zero interpretation of them.

I still don't see how you could have pulled a claim that I think the entire country has been Hip-Hopized (although, in a sense, this argument can be made) from these threads. This entire meltdown (heh heh...) began with a thread about a gangster/Hip-Hop artist called The Game, who has produced a new album of welfare underclass doggeral with an album cover blaspheming and trivializing Christian (primarily Catholic) symbolism and belierfs. Michelle Malkin reported it, and The Game melted down, calling her a "bitch," demanding an apology to figuratively all black people, and unleasing his fans on her, who used terms far less flattering, including the threat of rape.

There are deep and hugely disproportionate social pathologies among the American black population that need to be - finally and without flinching - opened to critique, criticism, and ethical standard setting.

So, you're jumping from an overreaction fro The Game and his fans (and what race were they?) to a conclusion that "There are deep and hugely disproportionate social pathologies" among African Americans? Can you not see why this is a problem?

It can't go on within that community, nor can any similar attitudes and values be tolerated among the white majority any longer who have been unraveling under very much the same attitudinal, psychological, and ideological yoke since the since roughly the early seventies and which has similar intellectual, if not specifically cultural origins. The entire thing is eventually going to come crashing down. It is not civilizationally sustainable.

Well, EA pointed out to you in the other thread that the "white underclass" happens to be pretty big fans of country music. Where's your "substantive" critique of that?

[_Gadianton]

Oh I see the problem, P. Diddy (if that's how you write it) has adorned himself in Droopy's picture with not one, but two crosses. That's worse than wearing two earrings. The true Church of Jesus Christ has banished the cross, and here is this punk promoting serious theological falsehoods. No wonder the inner cities of this country have come under such troubles.

Anyway, can someone explain to me Droopy's agenda? I get that he thinks liberals have glorified hip hop music. I do need to point out that promoting images and fashions has at least as much to do with profiteering as it does with making a serious political alignments. Having said that, what is the right course of action for liberals. Let's say I'm a liberal, which I'm not, and I want to change myself and the world for the better. What would I do? Write essays condemning hip hop? Would any hip hop aritsts read them? Do we need to call for a ban? As a supposed white liberal, what is the best course of action for me to take in relation to "black culture" in order to repent? And how will this lead to resolving racial tensions, violence, etc.?

[_EAllusion]

First, according to EA and Beastie (and most on the Left), its poverty that produces gangsta rap, Hip-Hop culture, and underclass values, Hip-Hop being the authentic voice and expression of that experience. Next, its rampant materialism and capitalist "lust." Why then, I wonder, doesn't Bill Gates dress like Tupac Shakur?)

I said no such thing. Feel free to quote otherwise. I did say, "Country music is similar to hip hop in that it is heavily influenced and consumed by people touched by poverty."

You responded with, "Its also heavily influenced and consumed by people touched by vast wealth and fame, and is consumed heavily by both white and black middle class youth."

So I added,

"Yes, that's what happens with art that comes from a particular segment of society and mainstreams.

... those musical culture's relationship with poverty helps explain the content. People write what they know."

From that you've extrapolated a view I don't have so you can rail against with hateful rhetoric turned up to 11. Meanwhile, while attempting to pillory me for saying that the content of hip-hop is influenced by the experience of poverty, you go on to approvingly quote an essay written by a black cultural critic that says, "Hip-hop is not just a style of music. It is a culture borne of poor, inner-city life in America that has evolved into the rallying cry of those unable to negotiate the nuances of the mainstream."

You even italicize the line for emphasis. That's more strident than my mere claim to influence, and yet you approve. You're all over the map. You seem satisfied to cut and paste any writing, of which you've done several, if it is 1) critical of hip hop and 2) written by a black guy. The message, beyond your own confusion over what is you actually think, is simply, "how can you criticize my attitudes when black people also also complain about hip-hop's status among blacks?!" The thought that there are distinct points being made, not all the same as yours, doesn't enter your mind. Really, the attitude here is more racist than your unthinking repetition of racist dog whistling of hip-hop that you mistakenly believe to be the same thing John McWhoter is saying.

I don't think that hip-hop is the only authentic expression of the experience of inner-city poverty among blacks. I agree with McWhorter on this point, which I referenced to Dr. Scratch, and would criticize anyone who held that attitude. I think it is an authentic expression, however - one we don't have to always agree with to find artistic merit in. Moreover, it's a pretty diverse genre, much more so than when this essay was written. That includes the popular stuff. I don't think you could assert it the "voice of the streets" without that voice then being incredibly schizophrenic.

Finally, since you mention it, not all displays of lavish wealth look the same. Bill Gates is a particularly poor example because he's quite Aspergery and from a geek subculture that doesn't care for ostentatious displays of wealth. But, at the end of the day, a platinum chain and a incredibly expensive suit aren't all that different in what they represent. That one is more "thuggish" and crude to you over the other represents some cultural prejudices you harbor. There's time and place and social context to what message appearances intend to send, of course, but the difference between Jesse Pinkman and Walter White isn't in the clothes they choose to wear.