Academia, leftists, hip hop

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_Tarski
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Re: Academia, leftists, hip hop

Post by _Tarski »

Droopy wrote:

Please read the ABOR again (if you even bothered to read it the first time), and then show me where any of what you have said above is either supported or implied in that document.


What problem? Interpreted reasonably I agree with all of it.
I don't think I said that I did have a problem with it outside of it being rather vague (as well as externally imposed by an apparently hostile source).

I said it sounds like principles implicitly already in place if I reading it correctly.

I haven't experienced any problems with the possible exception that some speakers are met with protests or heckles from political opponents. (Ahmadinejad got heckled for example). I am sure the right-wingers would have no problem heckling certain speakers.

I have also seen faculty object to certain hires on the basis that the person in question was an extreme political firebrand that had been accused of public deceptions and possible criminal activity (lying to congress for one thing). I am not sure how much difference those objections made. In any case, there is not much of a problem and whaddya gonna do if people want to speak up?

The only other possible problem with your ABOR document that I can see on first blush is that it appears to be a document produced from the outside and the circumstances of its production seem to imply that there is a problem where there is none. It sounds superficially reasonable (and unneeded) and yet smells like a set up somehow (see the fanciful analogy below)

Imagine if the Center for American Progress were to put out a document detailing a corrective for the LDS church indicating among other things that church meetings should avoid seditious rhetoric, that women and gays should be treated with respect, and that LDS leaders should break off ties with the underground lizard people.

Even if the principles all sounded reasonable (women and gays treated with respect) even if vague, the LDS would rightly be suspicious that they were being set up for something. LDS think they are already treating women and gays with respect and may be wondering what the real angle was.
Similarly, academicians think they are already respecting diversity of thought, academic freedom and so on.
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_Droopy
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Re: Academia, leftists, hip hop

Post by _Droopy »

Doctor Scratch wrote:Tarski asks, quite simply, "What should be done?", and in response, Droopy offers up absolutely nothing.


Read the ABOR. That's what I support. Its right here above, so no need to go looking for it.

Instead, he repeats his usual spiel about how "The Left" has infiltrated the academy, Affirmative Action is unfair, etc.


Move along...

Droopy: Specifically, which conservative ideas do you think need to be taught in US universities? Which specific things are being overlooked or censored by "The Left"?


Without going into the thirty year old long march through the academy that, as usual with the social and political history of your own country, you seem to have missed, read the ABOR.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Analytics
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Re: Academia, leftists, hip hop

Post by _Analytics »

Droopy wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:Tarski asks, quite simply, "What should be done?", and in response, Droopy offers up absolutely nothing.


Read the ABOR. That's what I support.

Somebody who has spent at least a quarter of a decade immersed in the halls of higher education than you said:

I am absolutely certain that each of those principles is both implicitly and explicitly basic operating policy.

So if that's what you want to see happening, and that's also what the people who actually spend their time in colleges perceive is in fact the case, are you sure there is a problem?
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

-Yuval Noah Harari
_Droopy
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Re: Academia, leftists, hip hop

Post by _Droopy »

Analytics wrote:Regardless of what should be done, what empirical evidence is there that backs Droopy’s claim? If the Left “thoroughly dominates American academia,” then this domination can be quantified. What percentage of college professors are Leftists? How is that measured? In what way to they dominate?


There are a number of books that written by scholars, historians and intellectuals who have immersed themselves in the history of the academy over the 25 - 30 years or so, some of which (among other writing) has both quantified and made philosophical and political qualitative analysis of the phenomenon. To answer one of your questions, a number of empirical studies place the ratio of leftists to conservatives at anywhere from 5-1 to 9-1 to 15 - 1 (University of Colarado at Boulder).

The only thing close to this that I’ve seen Droopy offer in these rants goes something like this:

[list=I]
[*] Real science has debunked global warming


DAGW or CAGW was never a serious scientific theory in the first instance, and from an empirical scientific standpoint, never made it beyond the speculative hypothesis stage (From within the IPCC and among the environmental movement proper, it was never more than a Trojan Horse within which could be hidden most of the old utopian pieties).

[*] The vast majority of climatologists at universities pretend that it is true (or worse, are so stupid they believe it’s true)


Believe what is true, "anthropogenic global warming," "dangerous/catastrophic anthropogenic global warming," or "climate change"?

Tens of thousands of earth scientists, physical scientists, natural scientists, mathematicians, statisticians, engineers, and climate scientists within a number of sub-specialties, including some of the most distinguished climatologists in the world, do not accept the claims of DAGW, and many never have.

Therefore the vast majority of climatologists at universities aren’t real scientists teaching about how to evaluate the evidence, what the evidence is, and what it implies. Rather, they are spewing discredited left-wing-propaganda etc.


What has kept the DAGW gravy train on its tracks over the last 20 years is not empirical science (as neither the IPCC nor anyone else has produced a single shred of empirically verifiable evidence for it, and literally each major claim derived from the GCM's has been either discredited by actual empirical observation and data or rendered in serious doubt), but:

1. The tiny cabal of government research grant money inebriated scientists (Briffa, Jones, Mann et al) who sold out their intellectual integrity early for the endless flow of government money and the thrill of going down in history as "saving the planet."

2. The IPCC, a thoroughly agenda-driven (and corruption-riddled) political entity for whom DAGW was never anything other than an ideological project wrapped in the authoritative robes of science.

3. Numerous other government grant money-inebriated scientists who will not get research grants in "climate science" unless their research has potential policy implications and their "findings" support the DAGW hypothesis, explicitly or implicitly.

The Left and the environmental/green movement generally, for whom DAGW (and environmentalism per se) became, after the collapses of the socialist dream in the rubble of the Berlin Wall, the major place of refuge and regrouping for the continuance of the struggle against, to borrow a book title from Milton Friedman, capitalism and freedom.

There's so much: the GCM's have never been validated, they have been shown to be worthless for the predictive job they have been conscripted to do; model predictions do not agree with empirical observations in a number of major areas; there's been no warming for some 15 years and a clear cooling trend since around 2002; sea level rise is continuing and historically normal rates (10cm - about four inches per century); the "hot spot" models predicted would exist in the upper tropical atmosphere that would signal the presence of anthropogenic warming, does not exist; the Arctic, save for the Arctic Peninsula that represents about two percent of the continent, is cooling, and has been cooling slightly at least since I was in grade school; polar bears are thriving and expanding, not decreasing, and on and on and on.

Or maybe the problem is on my end? What is the empirical evidence that the left thoroughly dominates American academia?


There are numerous books, monographs, essays, and studies on this subject, going back quite a few years. Be my guest and avail yourself of the most salient and documented arguments. They're hardly inconspicuous and have been around for quite a while.

Or, as I suspect, you're just playing the classic leftist game of pretending to be a struggling, embattled minority when you know full well that the academy, like the mainstream media, the foundations, K-12, and the entertainment world, are yours, and your dominance is utterly overwhelming. Here's a good start from the leading historian of the Left in the country who has been on the front lines of this particular issue for several decades:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Professors-Da ... 1596985259

http://www.amazon.com/One-Party-Classro ... 51-8544351

http://www.amazon.com/Indoctrination-Le ... 51-8544351

http://www.amazon.com/Reforming-Our-Uni ... 51-8544351
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: Academia, leftists, hip hop

Post by _Droopy »

Analytics wrote:
Somebody who has spent at least a quarter of a decade immersed in the halls of higher education than you said:

I am absolutely certain that each of those principles is both implicitly and explicitly basic operating policy.

So if that's what you want to see happening, and that's also what the people who actually spend their time in colleges perceive is in fact the case, are you sure there is a problem?


Argument from authority and by naked assertion. I can produce any number of quotes from people who have been around academia for some time, as long as your (unnamed, for some reason) source, and longer, that say this statement is pure hokum outside the natural and hard sciences, business school, engineering, and in some cases, economics.

The empirical, statistical, and historical realities here have long been settled (and admitted, oddly enough, on occasion, in both academia and the media, by some of the more intellectually honest among the Anointed) for a very long time.

You can't be half-educated and really consider yourself educated. That, unfortunately, is the average leftist's Achilles heel (among other darker tendencies).
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Tarski
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Re: Academia, leftists, hip hop

Post by _Tarski »

Droopy wrote:

The empirical, statistical, and historical realities here have long been settled (and admitted, oddly enough, on occasion, in both academia and the media, by some of the more intellectually honest among the Anointed) for a very long time.

You still aren't saying what you think should be done.
That was the question. What do you think should be done? FOCUS!

Would it be a problem if it the academy were a bastion of the right? What should be done if that were the case?

You can't be half-educated and really consider yourself educated. That, unfortunately, is the average leftist's Achilles heel (among other darker tendencies).

Gawd! You see, you are nothing more than a jerk. Why should anyone listen to you?
You are not more educated than the average person here. You are not more educated or intellegent than the supposed lefties haunting the universities. Get that fact down! You are just more rigid and feverishly ideological (than just about anyone I have ever encountered actually)
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_ludwigm
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Re: Academia, leftists, hip hop

Post by _ludwigm »

Tarski wrote:Would it be a problem if it the academy were a bastion of the right?

No.

They could deploy all the knowledge they have.
And there would come into being new technologies ...
[#img] http://preview.turbosquid.com/Preview/2 ... 9Large.jpg[/img]
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_Analytics
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Re: Academia, leftists, hip hop

Post by _Analytics »

Droopy wrote:
The problem is that those on the far right wouldn't be satisfied unless we are obliged to allow certain professors to teach creationism in biology class or obliged to hire an equal number of Austrian ecomomists (in some kind of ironic affirmative action).


Please read the ABOR again (if you even bothered to read it the first time), and then show me where any of what you have said above is either supported or implied in that document.

Affirmative Action, of any kind whatsoever, is implicitly rejected by the ABOR and explicitly opposed by virtually ever conservative/libertarian of any note with whom I am familiar....

By chance are you familiar with a conservative by the name of David Horowitz? Lol.

One of the main thing Horowitz asked the Kansas Legislature to do was include the following in their resolution:

…That the Kansas Board of Regents create an Office of Intellectual Diversity and Academic Standards on each of its campuses in the Office of the president or chancellor. The new office would be tasked with maintaining professional standards in all university departments and fostering the growth of intellectual diversity on the faculty and in the curriculum.

An “office of intellectual diversity” in the President’s office fostering the growth of “intellectual diversity” sure sounds like affirmative action to me.

http://www.studentsforacademicfreedom.o ... 031506.htm
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

-Yuval Noah Harari
_EAllusion
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Re: Academia, leftists, hip hop

Post by _EAllusion »

Tarkski -

The typical end game for the these kind of claims is twofold.

The first goal is to achieve increased acceptance of and class time for views that are popular among conservatives that mainstream academia tends to view as fringe or pseudoscientific. You generally see this in the guise of arguments for equal time for various views in the name of intellectual diversity and academic freedom. Notably, it’s impossible to give every possible view equal time. They really are only after equal time for views they favor, not anything you can find some academic somewhere arguing – especially not fringe views more popular on the left. Likewise, the hope is to prevent people who hold those views from being judged professionally incompetent and thus impacting their careers.

The two big issues for the right is creationism and climate change skepticism, but there’s a whole host of lesser status views out there that come with that package. If you were to accept that these ideas don’t receive time in classes and cause academics to regard those who push them to be incompetent because they are, in fact, poor, but rather because of political bias against them, then it makes a certain sense to push back in this manner. The fundamental problem is advocates of these movements are incompetent at least as far as those issues go. The problem isn’t bias, but the quality of their evidence and arguments.

The second goal, which is more uncommon and crazy than the first (though Droopy clearly is into it), is to fold everything into a grand leftwing desire to subjugate the population and render most everyone into serfs dependent on a totalitarian government overclass. Universities, what with them being run by this amorphous group of people known as “the left” then become a propaganda tool in advancing this dark purpose. Creationism isn't taught because its crackpotville, but rather because keeping it away is part of a leftwing plot to advance atheism and destroy the Christian nuclear family that stands in opposition to government subjugation. Climate change is a leftist political plot to justify regulation of economic behavior and increase government control, possibly "one-world" government control. Pointing this out is the first step to dismantling this road to totalitarianism. This folds right back into introducing fringe and pseudoscientific views conservatives are more inclined to be infatuated with.
_Droopy
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Re: Academia, leftists, hip hop

Post by _Droopy »

Tarski wrote:You still aren't saying what you think should be done.
That was the question. What do you think should be done? FOCUS!

READ THE ABOR. That's what I think should be done.

Would it be a problem if it the academy were a bastion of the right?


Yes, because human nature being what it is, the danger of groupthink and an in-group clique mentality toward opposing views could still develop and condition the atmosphere and teaching at such a university. A dynamic, open, intellectually heterodox environment should be the ideal, and this is what the Left has, to an overwhelming extent, destroyed across much of the academic landscape.

If anything, each side needs the other as a challenge to its own assumptions and ideas to keep its critical intellectual skills honed and to force each side to think deeper and more rigorously about its beliefs as it continuously fields and negotiates counter-arguments. That would be my ideal.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
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