Academia, leftists, hip hop

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_Droopy
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Re: Academia, leftists, hip hop

Post by _Droopy »

Analytics wrote:
One of the main thing Horowitz asked the Kansas Legislature to do was include the following in their resolution:

…That the Kansas Board of Regents create an Office of Intellectual Diversity and Academic Standards on each of its campuses in the Office of the president or chancellor. The new office would be tasked with maintaining professional standards in all university departments and fostering the growth of intellectual diversity on the faculty and in the curriculum.

An “office of intellectual diversity” in the President’s office fostering the growth of “intellectual diversity” sure sounds like affirmative action to me.


http://www.studentsforacademicfreedom.o ... 031506.htm


Let me get this straight: "diversity," in your universe of discourse, is the same thing as the singling out of identity groups for special privilege. Is this correct?
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

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_Darth J
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Re: Academia, leftists, hip hop

Post by _Darth J »

Droopy wrote:Yes, because human nature being what it is, the danger of groupthink and an in-group clique mentality toward opposing views could still develop and condition the atmosphere and teaching at such a university. A dynamic, open, intellectually heterodox environment should be the ideal, and this is what the Left has, to an overwhelming extent, destroyed across much of the academic landscape.

If anything, each side needs the other as a challenge to its own assumptions and ideas to keep its critical intellectual skills honed and to force each side to think deeper and more rigorously about its beliefs as it continuously fields and negotiates counter-arguments. That would be my ideal.


Further to your concerns about groupthink and an in-group clique mentality toward opposing views, and your eulogizing each side thinking deeper and more rigorously about its respective beliefs, I take it that you hereby acknowledge that there is a place in the LDS Church for Joanna Brooks.
_Darth J
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Re: Academia, leftists, hip hop

Post by _Darth J »

[Insert enraged, semi-coherent prolixity here]
_Analytics
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Re: Academia, leftists, hip hop

Post by _Analytics »

Droopy wrote:Let me get this straight: "diversity," in your universe of discourse, is the same thing as the singling out of identity groups for special privilege. Is this correct?

No, that isn’t correct.

Employers basically have two choices. First, they can hire based solely upon the merits of the applicants. This approach doesn’t care whether or not the process results in a diverse mix of hires. If this process doesn’t result in a diverse mix and a diverse mix is desired, employers have the second choice and take action to foster diversity. By definition, such programs are “affirmative action.”

If a college created an “office of racial diversity” that was tasked with “fostering the growth of racial diversity” at a college, that would be an affirmative action program. Likewise with Horowitz’s proposed “office of intellectual diversity.”
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

-Yuval Noah Harari
_Droopy
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Re: Academia, leftists, hip hop

Post by _Droopy »

EAllusion wrote:Tarkski -

The typical end game for the these kind of claims is twofold.

The first goal is to achieve increased acceptance of and class time for views that are popular among conservatives that mainstream academia tends to view as fringe or pseudoscientific.


Yet more clear evidence that you are, for the most part, contemptuously ignorant of what the conservative movement is, its history, and its core ideas. Creationism interests a small sub-set of conservatives, primarily the Protestant fundamentalists, who themselves have never defined the movement.

You generally see this in the guise of arguments for equal time for various views in the name of intellectual diversity and academic freedom. Notably, it’s impossible to give every possible view equal time.


No one is actually asking for "equal time" for any and all views. They are asking that professors stop using their lecterns as pulpits for their own ideological views, stop teaching controversial subjects as if the answers have already been settled (always in the Left's favor), stop teaching isolated, questionable, controversial theories/revisionist interpretations of historical/social phenomena as settled fact/truth (i.e., women's studies, African American studies, Afrocentrism, multiculturalism, Native American studies, queer theory, post-colonial theory, critical theory, cultural studies, Marxism (various schools), postmodernism etc.) and clearly and fairly provide students with both or alternative sides representing the major, salient arguments of longstanding questions of the human condition. This is what the Left has essentially banished from American academia, from the community college level through the Ivy League, and also what they so desperately want to preserve

They really are only after equal time for views they favor, not anything you can find some academic somewhere arguing – especially not fringe views more popular on the left.


Read the ABOR. Its not about "equal time" but about intellectual and academic heterodoxy and an atmosphere of open inquiry as an antidote to the intellectual Stalinism that has characterized the academy for roughly thirty years and come to define a body of entire departments that, more often than not, come to dominate and suffocate the campus intellectual climate.

Likewise, the hope is to prevent people who hold those views from being judged professionally incompetent and thus impacting their careers.


Keep the self-indulgent fantasies coming, EA. The more you post, the closer we get to your true core.

The two big issues for the right is creationism and climate change skepticism, but there’s a whole host of lesser status views out there that come with that package.


Dangerous or catastrophic anthropogenic global warming remains ensconced within mainstream academia, notwithstanding is grossly pseudoscientific nature, because of the endless streams of government research grant money flowing to those who do the right kind of research leading to the right results which imply certain kinds of government policy and which support and sustain certain ideological visions.

The rest can be understood to be a feature of the overwhelming groupthink and intellectual conformity that defines the humanities and social sciences, but which has bled beyond these departments into "climate science," making that discipline (there isn't any such thing as "climate science," per se, but a body of overlapping disciplines and sub-disciplines all having relevance to the study of climate, including the core discipline, climatology, and other earth sciences that study climate as a direct corollary of their core focus, such as geology) an embarrassment to a large segment of the rest of the scientific community (and to anyone who values both the integrity of science and the value of critical, analytical thought).

EA Mythology: "The two big issues for the right is creationism and climate change skepticism, but there’s a whole host of lesser status views out there that come with that package."

Reality: The major issues for the vast majority of those in the conservative intellectual movement, as well as a substantial majority of the conservative grassroots, can fairly be decocted as:

1. Gross, ideologically biased revisionist interpretations of American/Western history

2. Non-teaching or highly politicized teaching of economics.

3. Gross bias and hostility to America, patriotism, and the core values/ideas of the Founding.

4. Ideology taught and studied as settled truth or as the only serious theoretical framework within which to approach a subject.

5. Entire departments (the various "studies" disciplines) given over to the promulgation of sectarian ideological doctrines as academic study.

Creationism (not ID, per se) is a fundamentalist preoccupation, though not centered solely in that sub-group of evangelicals. AGW is a political question of concern to the entire conservative/libertarian movement, and is not a primary focus of the serious reform needed in higher ed per se (except in the sense that the grant money machine needs to be brought to heel).

Poor EA is simply too far out to sea on all of this, and to ignorant of the conservative movement and its core ideas and goals to really be a relevant contributor to a debate such as this.

The second goal, which is more uncommon and crazy than the first (though Droopy clearly is into it), is to fold everything into a grand leftwing desire to subjugate the population and render most everyone into serfs dependent on a totalitarian government overclass.


As our "libertarian" rushes to the defense of the Left once again, fantastically ignorant of history and as apparently, bereft of a substantive understanding of leftism as he is of conservatism, one can only gape (no wonder DCP gave up bothering to discuss anything with him long years ago).

Universities, what with them being run by this amorphous group of people known as “the left” then become a propaganda tool in advancing this dark purpose.


It was Todd Gitlin himself who admitted that, "we squandered the politics — but won the textbooks."

They're not all that "amorphous," and I don't think any conservative of intellectual standing has ever made that assertion. They're are concentrated in certain departments and intellectual pursuits, and even though people on the Left far outnumber those on the Right, in academia generally (because of the now legendary and well documented discrimination in hiring, tenure, and hounding out of the classroom for various crimes against the canons of political correctness, which even more moderate liberals (i.e., Lawrence Summers) cannot long avoid if they don't watch their ideological manners in public), across a number of humanities and social science departments throughout American academe, they are utterly dominant.

Creationism isn't taught because its crackpotville, but rather because keeping it away is part of a leftwing plot to advance atheism and destroy the Christian nuclear family that stands in opposition to government subjugation.


How many strawmen can you joust with, E., before you enter the arena of ideas as a serious participant?

Climate change is a leftist political plot to justify regulation of economic behavior and increase government control, possibly "one-world" government control.


That's undeniable true, as a concerted study of what a large number of the environmental movement's intellectuals, activists, and politicized scientists across the Western world have actually been saying for many years, in their own books, monographs, symposiums, conferences, position papers, and...uh...emails, and even more so by a sustained critique of the policies they desire to impose, nationally and, through U.N. mediated treaty obligations, across national borders and enforced by central government authority, either within national borders or, through transnational initiatives such as the long sought for global tax.

Pointing this out is the first step to dismantling this road to totalitarianism. This folds right back into introducing fringe and pseudoscientific views conservatives are more inclined to be infatuated with.


Again, your cartoon understanding of any ideas and beliefs other than your own render you a bit too easy to dismiss, E.

Keep up the good work.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Darth J
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Re: Academia, leftists, hip hop

Post by _Darth J »

So, Droopy, where did you go to grad school?

I'm so enthralled by your telling everyone how it is at universities that I keep forgetting where you got your degree.
_Droopy
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Re: Academia, leftists, hip hop

Post by _Droopy »

Analytics wrote:
Droopy wrote:Let me get this straight: "diversity," in your universe of discourse, is the same thing as the singling out of identity groups for special privilege. Is this correct?

No, that isn’t correct.

Employers basically have two choices. First, they can hire based solely upon the merits of the applicants. This approach doesn’t care whether or not the process results in a diverse mix of hires. If this process doesn’t result in a diverse mix and a diverse mix is desired, employers have the second choice and take action to foster diversity. By definition, such programs are “affirmative action.”

If a college created an “office of racial diversity” that was tasked with “fostering the growth of racial diversity” at a college, that would be an affirmative action program. Likewise with Horowitz’s proposed “office of intellectual diversity.”



You clearly are wholly "out of the loop" on the relevant literature and critique here, which has developed over the last three decades and which has long ago exposed, not only the suffocating dominance of the Left in American higher ed, but the freezing out of known or suspected conservatives in the hiring process, the persecutorial environment regarding those known to be politically incorrect, and the denying of tenure and promotion to the deviationists among the anointed.

The empirical, documentary, and vast anecdotal evidence here is just too mountainous to really bother reciting to someone so wholly unfamiliar with the relevant scholarship/investigative journalism on the subject. Suffice it to say, academia needs intellectual diversity in the very same way CBS, NBC, CNN, ABC, and NPR need it, because in any substantive way in many departments, among a really substantial number of colleges and universities, from the second tier state schools, to the top tier state schools, to the Ivy League, it doesn't exist in any meaningful way and hasn't for much of the last several decades.

Diversity is, as has been mentioned by many observers, the only kind of diversity that is not sought and nurtured in American academia.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Tarski
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Re: Academia, leftists, hip hop

Post by _Tarski »

Droopy wrote:

READ THE ABOR. That's what I think should be done.


Consider it done.

Would it be a problem if it the academy were a bastion of the right?

Yes, because human nature being what it is, the danger of groupthink and an in-group clique mentality toward opposing views could still develop and condition the atmosphere and teaching at such a university. A dynamic, open, intellectually heterodox environment should be the ideal, and this is what the Left has, to an overwhelming extent, destroyed across much of the academic landscape.

If anything, each side needs the other as a challenge to its own assumptions and ideas to keep its critical intellectual skills honed and to force each side to think deeper and more rigorously about its beliefs as it continuously fields and negotiates counter-arguments. That would be my ideal.

Like I said, this is what we are doing to the best of our ability already. (By thew way I found the idea of being drunk on grant money pretty hilarious. Professors get next to none of it. For example, I can never get more income than 12/9-th of my 9 month salary. The head manager at the local grocery will always make more than me no matter what grants I get.)

As an example, we just had a speaker here who goes in for this vector gravity variable speed of light nonsense. He was treated with great dignity and respect and people engaged him on the details of his assertions.

Here is the problem for you: Once some kind of semi-stable state of equilibrium (including a policy of reasonable self reflection and openness) is achieved as a result of the iterated process you describe, that reasonable equilibrium will appear to those that remain at the extremes or remain unconvinced by an emerging (and most likely moderate) consensus as something entirely different. There will always be those that resent any shift from their initial intellectual state--they knew they were right all along and only agreed on principles of discussion and criticism in the belief that they would be vindicated. They had no intention of reconsidering tightly held beliefs.
These are the rigid ideologues. For example, Jesus Christ himself could never correct someone like Rush Limbaugh--his talk-radio conservatism is a pile of axioms (muddled axioms) that cannot be questioned. They have testimonies, so to speak, and have already chosen a center point around which their world moves.
They (you!) will still see a lack of balance in the academy exactly because they are out of balance themselves.

In other words, we just can't win because for a large number of holdouts, no conclusions but their own forgone conclusions could signal anything but irrationality and "leftism".

An example might be those that just won't give up on creationism. No amount of evidence will do. They become experts in minutia, self generated folklore, conspiracy theories, fringe science, misread science etc. They gather together and reinforce each other on the internet and continually hone their pseudoarguments (a la answersingenesis.com).

They are indoctrinated and unmovable and ........drumrole............they inevitably see the approximate consensus as the result indoctrination and group-think. They judge themselves to have been right all alone no matter what.


This is the ironic situation you are in and out of which you can apparently never break out.

Your move now is to accuse us in the academy of exactly this kind of group think (what makes this particularly difficult to deal with is the fact that some amount of group think is unavoidable --its human). It reminds me of the way that religionists accuse nonbelievers of having a religion (secularism or whatever) or employing faith . Or, the way we are told that science is just a bunch of theories. As soon as we are forced to admit that all science is provisional, they think they have won or are at least on equal footing.

So I am afraid that doing exactly what your little ABOR document recommends would (indeed already does) leave you unsatisfied.

Maybe it would help if you didn't continually have your attention drawn to unusual pockets of leftism or unusual (and sometimes untrue) anecdotes designed to outrage the conservatives. Stop thinking about hip hop and radical feminism and so on (all allowable topics of course). Very little of it is what you think it is and it isn't playing the big role in academics you imagine.

Instead, you should (but apparently can't) take my word for the fact that every effort is made to avoid groupthink, suppression of ideas and that every effort is made to engage in rational argument and allow differing opinions.
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_Darth J
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Re: Academia, leftists, hip hop

Post by _Darth J »

Droopy, when you were in grad school, did you encounter many attempts to indoctrinate you into the leftist agenda? Since Tarski shared his anecdotes about academia, I would like to see some contrary anecdotes from your own experience.
_EAllusion
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Re: Academia, leftists, hip hop

Post by _EAllusion »

How many strawmen can you joust with, E.


That's a near verbatim quote from you Droopy. Maybe it was one of your other personalities taking its turn.
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