WE Worship Jesus and have Personal Relationship

[_Albion]

Mittens, I am not sure of the reason for your post to me. I agree with the definitions of the Christian position that you post and offered my simple statement in support.

[_ldsfaqs]

The Christian Trinity teaches that within the unity of one Diety there are three separate persons who are coequal in power, nature, and eternity.....but never let it be said that ldsfaqs ever does what he accuses others of.

And when did I claim anything otherwise???

You lie about what I've said!

"Persons" are not "Beings"..... One Deity is One Being. Christian scholarship has been clear on this.
Even more the usage of the word "one" makes clear it is one being, thing, essence, etc. (whatever you want to call it)

My not quoting the entire definition doesn't mean I'm misrepresenting anything.
Further, you would be misrepresenting because even you all don't address every aspect which includes the "being" aspect.

Mittens, instead of quoting me Trinity belief which I've seen and know a million times over, why don't you actually point out where and how I've misrepresented? You haven't done so. That makes you again bearing false witness of me.

Albion, you do the same also.... Where have I misrepresented anything about Trinity belief? Again, you do the same by making claims of me for which you've provided NO EVIDENCE.

Of course, to be fair, modern Christians tend to avoid using the term "being", for obvious reasons (because it makes clear the non-sensicalness of the Trinity, as well because Mormons use the term.)

But still, even that fact, the best theologians and scholars of christiandom in nearly all works have made clear that "being" is what is being said to describe the "one".

[_ldsfaqs]

One God

Main article: Monotheism

Christianity, having emerged from Judaism, is a monotheistic religion. Never in the New Testament does the trinitarian concept become a "tritheism" (three Gods) nor even two.[29] God is one, and that the Godhead is a single being is strongly declared in the Bible:

The Shema of the Hebrew Scriptures: "Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one."[Deut 6:4]

The first of the Ten Commandments—"Thou shalt have no other gods before me"[5:7].
and "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel and his redeemer the LORD of hosts: I am the first and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."[Isa 44:6]

In the New Testament: "The Lord our God is one."[Mk 12:29]

In the Trinitarian view, the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost share the one essence, substance or being. The central and crucial affirmation of Christian faith is that there is one savior, God, and one salvation, manifest in Jesus Christ, to which there is access only because of the Holy Spirit. The God of the Old Testament is still the same as the God of the New. In Christianity, statements about a single God are intended to distinguish the Hebraic understanding from the polytheistic view, which see divine power as shared by several beings, beings which can and do disagree and have conflicts with each other.

Sorry, didn't misrepresent anything!!!!
I simply know the Trinity Doctrine BETTER than you....

[_Albion]

If I misunderstood your statement, I offer an apology, but I took it as read. My OED defines being as" "Existence, living; being alive; the nature or essence of a person." The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not in any way one being...they are one God. You may have heard the term "one being" used to describe the Christian Trinity...I never have and suspect that such use of the term would be met by most Christians with the same objection that I originally raised.

With regard to your overall post, I think you treat the differences between Mormon theology and orthodox Christian theology in a very simplistic way. I believe the differences are vast and insurmountable so that fellowship in worship will never be possible between the two while those differences exist.

[_consiglieri]

Even the Bible and Christ Himself said WHO we are to worship.
It's God the Father, not Him, not anyone else.

Unfortunately the Book of Mormon says the opposite.

[_ldsfaqs]

Even the Bible and Christ Himself said WHO we are to worship.
It's God the Father, not Him, not anyone else.

Unfortunately the Book of Mormon says the opposite.

1. Actually, no it doesn't. It does by "ignoring" certain scriptures, only focusing on the ones that use Worship in a particular context. But it also teaches us to Worship the Father through Christ. Christ's worship in context has ALWAYS been a lessor form of worship, a different type of worship. For our true and full worship has ALWAYS been to the Father, not Christ.

Obviously, when God is walking the earth, then he speaks differently.

*** The "Spirit" of God for example is not actually "God", it's the Holy Ghost, acting as God through the Godhead.

2. Christ was also "God" at the time, a Resurrected being in all authority and power, thus obviously "worship" of him as God was perfectly reasonable. After all, he IS the God of this earth, the creator, etc. Of course, it's all done according to and by the Fathers Will and Power. As a part of the Godhead, he is God....

3. If you don't believe me, read for yourself....

Alma 7:6-9 indirectly shows the difference between the God we are to worship and the Son of God.

Jacob 4:5
5 Behold, they believed in Christ and worshiped the Father in his name, and also we worship the Father in his name. And for this intent we keep the law of Moses, it pointing our souls to him; and for this cause it is sanctified unto us for righteousness, even as it was accounted unto Abraham in the wilderness to be obedient unto the commands of God in offering up his son Isaac, which is a similitude of God and his Only Begotten Son.

Makes clear the "order" of things.....

Alma 34:38
38 That ye contend no more against the Holy Ghost, but that ye receive it, and take upon you the name of Christ; that ye humble yourselves even to the dust, and worship God, in whatsoever place ye may be in, in spirit and in truth; and that ye live in thanksgiving daily, for the many mercies and blessings which he doth bestow upon you.

Kinda monotonous to take upon oneself and worship God if both are the same thing and same person or being. Why not just say take upon ourselves the name of God and worship Him???

3 Nephi
20 For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel;

We are to worship the father by coming unto the son. For we get to the Father through the Son.

2 Nephi 25:16
16 And after they have been scattered, and the Lord God hath scourged them by other nations for the space of many generations, yea, even down from generation to generation until they shall be persuaded to believe in Christ, the Son of God, and the atonement, which is infinite for all mankind—and when that day shall come that they shall believe in Christ, and worship the Father in his name, with pure hearts and clean hands, and look not forward any more for another Messiah, then, at that time, the day will come that it must needs be expedient that they should believe these things.

Makes clear who we are to worship....

[_ldsfaqs]

If I misunderstood your statement, I offer an apology, but I took it as read. My OED defines being as" "Existence, living; being alive; the nature or essence of a person." The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not in any way one being...they are one God. You may have heard the term "one being" used to describe the Christian Trinity...I never have and suspect that such use of the term would be met by most Christians with the same objection that I originally raised.

Like I said, modern christianity (i.e. in the last 20 or so years) has not been using the word "being" to describe the Trinity. Nevertheless, Christian greats/theologians have always understood SAME "essence", "substance" etc. to mean the same "entity", "being" or whatever word. "Being" is simply another word to describe the collection of something as one. Again, modern Christians don't like/use it anymore because of the Mormon implications. Your theology has changed because of Mormonisms existence. Remember, I actually know..... I was active in MANY of your religions prior to being Mormon, well versed in your books, theology, etc.

With regard to your overall post, I think you treat the differences between Mormon theology and orthodox Christian theology in a very simplistic way. I believe the differences are vast and insurmountable so that fellowship in worship will never be possible between the two while those differences exist.

And that is the bigotry speaking..... and exactly the reason you believe it's "insurmountable". Me, I've been on all sides without bigotry but simply observing, experiencing, absorbing, and understanding. True Christians can worship with ANY other Christian. It after all is what Christ actually taught us to be.

Just came accross this Book of Mormon scripture....

3 Nephi 11:
28 And according as I have commanded you thus shall ye baptize. And there shall be no disputations among you, as there have hitherto been; neither shall there be disputations among you concerning the points of my doctrine, as there have hitherto been.

29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.

31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.

If you remember, there are similar scriptures in the Bible....

You also forget what the Lord directly said makes a "unity of Faith".
Read Ephesians 4 again.....
It even directly states to "not walk as Gentiles in the vanity of mind".
We are "members one of another".

Basically, the whole chapter is chastising you stating that because of each of our belief in Christ we are "one in spirit", and shouldn't allow our intellects to rule our judgments of each other, for we are not yet "united in the Faith" unto a perfect man, but are to look forward to that day in PEACE. I also love how he a couple of times says we are not to LIE about each other. Since you guys do that a TON and almost about everything, clearly you're far from follow the Words of Christ.

No one is denying there aren't truths and eternal and absolute truths.
But, Christ was clear in the scriptures that it is our hearts and our actions which save, not our "perfect knowledge" of so-called "truths". The fact that you have to use "knowledge" to separate us is an irony and Pharisaical (irony because it's what you falsely accuse us of). Further, it ignores the example of the "Parable of the Good Samaritan". A man who wasn't in the Church, wasn't the elect, wasn't the learned, yet was the ONLY ONE WHO WAS OF GOD because of his actions and heart, not because of his knowledge and position or Church.

That parable alone condemns your actions toward other believers.....

Further, a religion that claims a "priesthood of all believers" and a religion who claims that belief in Christ is what saves above anything and over anything else, for some reason the irony you don't really believe it when it concerns any other believer such as Mormons, because our "doctrine" differs in certain respects. You exclude us for intellectual reasons, rather than good or evil, believer or unbeliever. How can you get more Pharisaical than that???

[_Albion]

Thank you, ldsfaqs, for your gracious response to my offered apology. There was absolutely no bigotry in my post which was a statement of the situation as it is. Your comment that orthodoxy has changed its Trinity doctrine, its wording in any way, because of Mormonism is so ludicrous as to be laughable. In terms of worldwide religion, Mormonism is barely a blip on the religious radar to religionists around the world. It is only something of interest to those who are either involved in it or who, like me, live around it on a daily basis. I would submit that Mormonism has "softened" more of its beliefs and practices in an effort to be accepted by the world at large than the other way around. Mormonism does not have fellowship with orthodox Christianity because of irreconcilable differences. That isn't bigotry on my part, its opinion based simply on the way things are. Remember, it is the Mormon Church which makes the claim of being the "only try church on the face of the earth". Is there really anything more exclusionary than that. You may well believe it but it does not really endear you to those outside your church now, does it?

[_Mittens]

Mormonism don't offer PURE WORSHIP like Evangelics

http://youtu.be/DdQ79-GBRi4

[_Mittens]

New Link for McConkie Speech

http://speeches.BYU.edu/?act=viewitem&id=602