Worship Music

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_Bhodi
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Re: Worship Music

Post by _Bhodi »

Mittens wrote:If we're wrong why not produce scripture to prove it rather than a pontification of ramblings. Why not produce a person in the New Testament Church holding the Melchizedek Priesthood besides Jesus ?


Actually you produced the scriptural proof you were wrong, you just did not know it. As for a person in the "New Testament Church holding the Melchizedek Priesthood besides Jesus", I am not sure why you do not know that James the Just/James the Brother of Jesus was considered to be a priest after the Order of Melchizedek. This is Christian history and tradition. It is also not a secret.
_Mittens
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Re: Worship Music

Post by _Mittens »

Chapter and verse please


http://youtu.be/J3OEGnH5x8g
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
_Bhodi
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Re: Worship Music

Post by _Bhodi »

Mittens wrote:Chapter and verse please


I am not sure what you are asking for, but I am not sure that you do either. I asked previously and you said you were well versed on Christian history and the Bible, why did you ask about someone else being a Melchizedek priest when it should be well known that James was a Melchizedek priest? In some writings it is even claimed that he was allowed in the Holy of Holies because of the association. If you are asking for the chapter and verse of the portion of scripture that discusses Melchizedek priests, you provided them I thought, but they have all been discussed here.
_Albion
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Re: Worship Music

Post by _Albion »

Well known is a vague expression. He was also thought to be a priest of the Dead Sea sect who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls. It is no kind of fact but mostly unconfirmed tradition. Scripture mentions only two people in connection with the MP.....Melchizedec himself and Jesus...unless you can find others. Jesus was a priest of Melchizedek in the order, style of, or fashion of Melchizedek ...far and way the overwhelming view of Biblical scholars throughout history regardless of your opinion that it is a modern protestant creation. Are they all wrong....are they all part of some massive conspiracy....a conspiracy that presumably the Old Testament writers were in on because none of them deemed the MP important enough to mention in relation entire generations of prophets and other leaders. The high priest of the Jews, only one at a time, held the Levitical priesthood by which he officiated...his highest duty being in the Holy of Holies on the Day of Atonement. Jesus was not of Levi and thus it was necessary for him to have a different or higher priesthood, one that only he was qualified for, in order to enter the real Holy of Holies, the place where God literally dwells, making an offering of himself on behalf of sinful mankind. Since he holds the office still, what on earth reason would there be for any other?
_Mittens
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Re: Worship Music

Post by _Mittens »

Very good post Albion

http://youtu.be/iHpRlztBUd8
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
_Bhodi
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Re: Worship Music

Post by _Bhodi »

Albion wrote:Well known is a vague expression.


No, it means that in the world of Biblical studies it is something that most people would know.

He was also thought to be a priest of the Dead Sea sect who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls.


I know of no legitimate scholar who believes James wrote the DSS. There is thought that it might describe some of the early Christian/esoteric Judaic communities, but as to writing...? Which one are you referring to?

It is no kind of fact but mostly unconfirmed tradition.


You don't know you are wrong, do you? The tradition predates the re-emergence of the DSS. I'm talking of Early Christian writings, I believe 4th or 5th century, but I would have to look it up.

Scripture mentions only two people in connection with the MP.....Melchizedec himself and Jesus...unless you can find others.


That's where you are wrong. Scripture mentions a group. It only names two explicitly. If Scripture mentioned 12 apostles, but only mentioned 5 by name, according to your logic, there would only be 5, but the word 12 means there had to me more than 5. The terminology used to refer to the Order of Melchizedek, precludes the restriction to two people, this is simple, and unarguable, linguistics.

Jesus was a priest of Melchizedek in the order, style of, or fashion of Melchizedek


Completely wrong. Jesus was a priest in the order, meaning a grouping that contained multiple members, of Melchizedek.

...far and way the overwhelming view of Biblical scholars throughout history regardless of your opinion that it is a modern protestant creation. Are they all wrong....are they all part of some massive conspiracy....a conspiracy that presumably the Old Testament writers were in on because none of them deemed the MP important enough to mention in relation entire generations of prophets and other leaders.


Odd, now you see conspiracies? I suspect most of the people you consider scholars are anything but.

The high priest of the Jews, only one at a time, held the Levitical priesthood by which he officiated...his highest duty being in the Holy of Holies on the Day of Atonement. Jesus was not of Levi and thus it was necessary for him to have a different or higher priesthood, one that only he was qualified for, in order to enter the real Holy of Holies, the place where God literally dwells, making an offering of himself on behalf of sinful mankind. Since he holds the office still, what on earth reason would there be for any other?


Interesting. There is only one high priest, but many, many, many subordinate priests, all of the Order of Aaron. But with Melchizedek, where the same language is used, and the same word for order (as in a military order), there is only one high priest, and absolutely zero subordinate priests, within the same order, but this makes sense to you.

Unfortunately Biblical tradition, history, linguistics, and even scholarship, disagrees with you.
_Mittens
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Re: Worship Music

Post by _Mittens »

http://youtu.be/edxpzIAQf0s

How about Worship music and Gethsemane
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
_Albion
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Re: Worship Music

Post by _Albion »

One or two thoughts on your post, Bhodi. Tradition is not necessarily something most people would know. It is purely tradition...something handed down often without foundation...no more reliable than the tradition that holds that the Shroud of Turin is the actual burial cloth of Christ.

Please reread my post. I did not say that James wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls but only that it was thought (another tradition without factual support) that he was a member of the sect that wrote them.

Please show me a scripture that mentions this group you claim. You use the designation "Order of Melchizedec"....the scripture is printed "order of Melchizedeck" which fully allows for the use of the word order to mean in the style of...after the style or type of. An important distinction when I was taught grammar. A small detail perhaps but a detail none the less. Since the MP is clearly a heavenly priesthood (where Jesus exercises it as our intercessor), reserved only for those of such high and holy status like unto the Son of God, I think you make a mistake in the first place in assuming any kind of worldly order in the sense that you use the word. Melchizedec was a "one off"....Jesus was most definitely a "one off".

I do not see conspiracies. I was voicing a supposition that perhaps Mormons and others might suggest that lack of any scripture to others holding this priesthood is down to some kind of conspiracy. That's normally their response when Biblical evidence doesn't support their viewpoint....."it's not translated correctly". The MP isn't mentioned anywhere else in scripture because it was not a part of Jewish culture, tradition or practice and that's why it is isn't mentioned.

Just one christian commentary on the Bible from my shelf...one that supports the accepted Christian stand on this issue...don't know if they are still alive or dead but no matter their credentials speak for them anyway:

E.L. Curtis Ph.D., D.D. Professor of Hebrew Language and Literature, Yale Divinity School.

C.F. Kent., Ph.D., Professor of Biblical History and Literature, Yale University

Streane, Rev. A.W., D.D. Fellow of Corpus Christi College Cambridge.

Rev. Kennett. Canon R., Regius Professor of Hebrew, Cambridge.

Rev. J.R. Dummelow. M.A., Queen's College Cambridge, Editor

S.A. Peake, D.D., Dean of the Faculty of Theology, University of Manchester.

J.H. Ropes., D.D. Bussey Professor of New Testament. Criticism and Exegesis, Harvard University.

I could go on but these are a few of the scholars taken at random from the introduction. Are their credentials good enough for you or would you like more?

You have given plenty of opinion but no substance yet to make me change my mind
_Bhodi
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Re: Worship Music

Post by _Bhodi »

Albion wrote:One or two thoughts on your post, Bhodi. Tradition is not necessarily something most people would know. It is purely tradition...something handed down often without foundation...no more reliable than the tradition that holds that the Shroud of Turin is the actual burial cloth of Christ.

Please reread my post. I did not say that James wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls but only that it was thought (another tradition without factual support) that he was a member of the sect that wrote them.


You said "He was also thought to be a priest of the Dead Sea sect who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls." This is not really a thought, no one believes this that I am aware of. People did believe he was a High Priest after the Order of Melchizedek. There is a difference.

Please show me a scripture that mentions this group you claim. You use the designation "Order of Melchizedec"....the scripture is printed "order of Melchizedeck" which fully allows for the use of the word order to mean in the style of...after the style or type of. An important distinction when I was taught grammar. A small detail perhaps but a detail none the less. Since the MP is clearly a heavenly priesthood (where Jesus exercises it as our intercessor), reserved only for those of such high and holy status like unto the Son of God, I think you make a mistake in the first place in assuming any kind of worldly order in the sense that you use the word. Melchizedec was a "one off"....Jesus was most definitely a "one off".


And this is perfectly legitimate, if you completely ignore the understanding of the time. You are correct, that order in the English sense could mean "type of" but the Grek connotation of the time was a military designation. In order to understand the passage, you have to understand the time and context, which is again why most people, who do not invest this time, should NOT study the Bible. It is not that they are incapable of doing it, it is that they will not put the required effort into it.

I do not see conspiracies. I was voicing a supposition that perhaps Mormons and others might suggest that lack of any scripture to others holding this priesthood is down to some kind of conspiracy. That's normally their response when Biblical evidence doesn't support their viewpoint....."it's not translated correctly". The MP isn't mentioned anywhere else in scripture because it was not a part of Jewish culture, tradition or practice and that's why it is isn't mentioned.


Except the Mormon position is supported by scripture. As is the Catholic, Orthodox, and sometimes Lutheran and Episcopalian (and others).

Just one christian commentary on the Bible from my shelf...one that supports the accepted Christian stand on this issue...don't know if they are still alive or dead but no matter their credentials speak for them anyway:

E.L. Curtis Ph.D., D.D. Professor of Hebrew Language and Literature, Yale Divinity School.

C.F. Kent., Ph.D., Professor of Biblical History and Literature, Yale University

Streane, Rev. A.W., D.D. Fellow of Corpus Christi College Cambridge.

Rev. Kennett. Canon R., Regius Professor of Hebrew, Cambridge.

Rev. J.R. Dummelow. M.A., Queen's College Cambridge, Editor

S.A. Peake, D.D., Dean of the Faculty of Theology, University of Manchester.

J.H. Ropes., D.D. Bussey Professor of New Testament. Criticism and Exegesis, Harvard University.

I could go on but these are a few of the scholars taken at random from the introduction. Are their credentials good enough for you or would you like more?

You have given plenty of opinion but no substance yet to make me change my mind


Can you provide quotes?
_moksha
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Re: Worship Music

Post by _moksha »

Image

You want a choir?

You and your deacons sitting behind the safety of this wall can't handle a real choir....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbQVdLRqJ1w
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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