David not in Hell like LDS teach

[_Albion]

No degrees of salvation. and no exaltation as Mormons believe it. Believing so you effectively declare that Christ's shed blood is insufficient to cover human sin. Either he atoned for the "sins of the whole world" or he didn't. There is only one sin mentioned as unforgivable in Christ's own words and that is likely a direct sin against Christ himself and the charge that he is of the devil...it does not include murder: "And so I tell you, EVERY SIN and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven." NIV Matthew 12:31

By your understanding Moses and Paul are also excluded and in hell since murder can be charged against them also. That's an absurd premise and negates the whole principle of repentance and forgiveness from a God who is grace personified.

[_bcspace]

No degrees of salvation. and no exaltation as Mormons believe it. Believing so you effectively declare that Christ's shed blood is insufficient to cover human sin

The Early Church fathers would disagree with you. But of course they were on the road to universal apostasy.....

Having degrees of salvation says nothing about the sufficiency of Christ's shed blood. Degree of salvation is a function of how obedient one is which is to say how much one is willing to take upon them Christ's shed blood, freely available to all. This speaks to the Biblical doctrine of grace and works both required for salvation.

There is only one sin mentioned as unforgivable in Christ's own words and that is likely a direct sin against Christ himself and the charge that he is of the devil

Yes. In that case, there is no salvation at all.

"And so I tell you, EVERY SIN and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven." NIV Matthew 12:31

I agree 100% as I agree with any Bible verse you care to quote.

By your understanding Moses and Paul are also excluded and in hell since murder can be charged against them also.

Perhaps. The Acts 2:34 information is specific to Paul. In my own opinion the Moses incident can be called defense, not murder. As for Saul, consenting to an execution is not the same as murder or even ordering it. But if you think they committed murder, then perhaps they are in hell too.

That's an absurd premise and negates the whole principle of repentance .

Not at all as I've shown above.

and forgiveness from a God who is grace personified

God is not an abstraction.

[_vessr]

No degrees of salvation. and no exaltation as Mormons believe it. Believing so you effectively declare that Christ's shed blood is insufficient to cover human sin. Either he atoned for the "sins of the whole world" or he didn't. There is only one sin mentioned as unforgivable in Christ's own words and that is likely a direct sin against Christ himself and the charge that he is of the devil...it does not include murder: "And so I tell you, EVERY SIN and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven." NIV Matthew 12:31

By your understanding Moses and Paul are also excluded and in hell since murder can be charged against them also. That's an absurd premise and negates the whole principle of repentance and forgiveness from a God who is grace personified.

I’m neither a Mormon nor a Christian; but Christians do not teach that Christ atoned for the “sins of the whole would.” Not only do they not believe in forgiveness for blasphemy against the Spirit, but they also don't believe in forgiveness for those that don’t believe in Christ and accept him as their Savior.

How can that be an atonement for the “sins of the WHOLE world"? That leaves millions, if not billions without forgiveness, if God won’t "atone" for the "sins of the whole earth" unless they believe.

So it is not true that EVERY SIN will be forgiven man according to fundamentalist Christians. And it is an absurd premise to me that a God of “grace” would let all those children of his rot in hell because they didn’t know or didn’t understand how to believe in Him.

If God is a God of love, he would be more loving that the greatest father on earth; and I’m pretty sure that EVERY father on earth who loves his children would never punish ANY of his children for not “believing in” them or their mercy.

[_Albion]

What a strange post. Christianity does indeed teach that Christ atoned for the sins of the whole world. The price for sin has been paid in full by Christ at Calvary...including your sins, vessr.....but God being the gracious God that he is does not force anyone to accept the free gift he offers. It is there for the taking simply by believing, trusting, and allowing him to direct your life. God continually reaches out to mankind, just as he does here, offering his prevenient grace to you. If you were floundering in rough seas and I threw you a lifebelt but refused to grab it, is it my fault that you choose to drown rather than accepting the lifesaver I have offered. God offers a way for your redemption through the gift of his son...it is not his fault if you reject the offer.

[_vessr]

What a strange post. Christianity does indeed teach that Christ atoned for the sins of the whole world. The price for sin has been paid in full by Christ at Calvary...including your sins, vessr.....but God being the gracious God that he is does not force anyone to accept the free gift he offers. It is there for the taking simply by believing, trusting, and allowing him to direct your life. God continually reaches out to mankind, just as he does here, offering his prevenient grace to you. If you were floundering in rough seas and I threw you a lifebelt but refused to grab it, is it my fault that you choose to drown rather than accepting the lifesaver I have offered. God offers a way for your redemption through the gift of his son...it is not his fault if you reject the offer.

You call my post “strange.” But I told you I’m not a Christian. And I told you that Christ’s atonement does not apply to the blasphemer and nonbeliever. What’s so strange about that? It is NOT a free gift; and it is not “simple” to believe, if one was born a Buddist or Hindu or Muslem. And yet your God would not forgive those who haven’t heard of Christ or have been taught, through no fault of their own, to believe in something else. And you speak of a gracious God, but you haven’t addressed my primary question: how can a loving God be less loving that most earthly fathers who would NEVER throw away a child who didn’t believe in him! IF God can do anything, he can certainly change the rules of his little game.

[_Albion]

God cannot set aside his holiness to accommodate you as a sinner in his presence. Holiness is not something God does, it is what he is and you would not abide for a second in his presence in your sinful state. Your argument seems to me to be extremely petulant....as if you want God to change to accommodate your condition. It doesn't work that way. Christ has taken care of the sin debt, yours and mine, and offers salvation as a free gift to all who will receive it "...the just for the unjust, that he might reconcile us to God." If you choose to reject the gift, that is your choice and I am sure God will respect that choice, but to blame God for your willful choice and to expect God to give your the gift anyway is a puzzling attitude to me.

God has been described as "the hound of heaven" in that he continually and in every aspect of life pursues mankind to reveal himself...your very presence here in a religious discussion is not by any accident.... and yet you claim it is not simple to believe or know him. In its essence, I believe it to be very simple...about as simple as going from to knees with a prayer confessing your sinfulness, your inability to save yourself, and your need for him to enter your life and to change you to a newness of character in him. God is quick to respond to the repentant sinner, offering immediate salvation and his spirit to direct you in your new life. What prevents you from being saved?

[_vessr]

God cannot set aside his holiness to accommodate you as a sinner in his presence. Holiness is not something God does, it is what he is and you would not abide for a second in his presence in your sinful state. Your argument seems to me to be extremely petulant....as if you want God to change to accommodate your condition. It doesn't work that way. Christ has taken care of the sin debt, yours and mine, and offers salvation as a free gift to all who will receive it "...the just for the unjust, that he might reconcile us to God." If you choose to reject the gift, that is your choice and I am sure God will respect that choice, but to blame God for your willful choice and to expect God to give your the gift anyway is a puzzling attitude to me.

God has been described as "the hound of heaven" in that he continually and in every aspect of life pursues mankind to reveal himself...your very presence here in a religious discussion is not by any accident.... and yet you claim it is not simple to believe or know him. In its essence, I believe it to be very simple...about as simple as going from to knees with a prayer confessing your sinfulness, your inability to save yourself, and your need for him to enter your life and to change you to a newness of character in him. God is quick to respond to the repentant sinner, offering immediate salvation and his spirit to direct you in your new life. What prevents you from being saved?

Universal Rule 1 is that every opinion is welcome; however, Universal Rule 4 requires that we not “derail” a threat “or otherwise insert commentary that has nothing to do with a thread's opening post.”

This thread's opening post addressed the status of King David. I believe he is going to be just fine, status-wise. I believe that all children of a loving father are forgiven. I speak as a former Born Again Christian who was promised eternal security by accepting Christ. I also speak as a former Mormon who was promised that the Joseph Smith was a true prophet along with every Mormon prophet and apostle who as addressed David’s condition.

I say David will be forgiven because a loving father would forgive his wayward son, even if he was on death row. And God is more loving than the most loving earthly father.

I say that because Mormons and Christians believe that no scripture is of private interpretation, that we can’t solve this through the scriptures.

If God can do everything, he certainly could set aside his “holiness” based on his love for his children which is superior to any man’s.

You claim that I would “not last for a second in his [holier-than-me] presence ….” Isn’t there a Universal Rule about THAT??

You claim my argument is “extremely petulant.” As “petulant” applies as an adjective to a person, not a thing, I think there’s a rule against that. But I forgive you.

You claim I have a “condition” that God couldn’t accommodate. Isn’t there a rule agains that?

You call my attitude “puzzling.” Well, I guess there’s no rule agains that : )

[_Albion]

Yes sir, you are indeed fully entitled to your opinion but it always amazes me how many non believers have strong opinions on how the Christian god should and would act in given circumstances. To expect God to cease being what he is in order to to accommodate the beliefs and opinions of the unbeliever is, to me, man's arrogance in the extreme. You confess that you don't know him but presume to suggest how he should and would act. We will have to agree to disagree on this issue.

I will agree, however, that David will take a rightful place in heaven. Not because God changes but because of David's faith and repentance which brought change in him.

[_bcspace]

I’m neither a Mormon nor a Christian; but Christians do not teach that Christ atoned for the “sins of the whole would.” Not only do they not believe in forgiveness for blasphemy against the Spirit, but they also don't believe in forgiveness for those that don’t believe in Christ and accept him as their Savior.

How can that be an atonement for the “sins of the WHOLE world"? That leaves millions, if not billions without forgiveness, if God won’t "atone" for the "sins of the whole earth" unless they believe.

So it is not true that EVERY SIN will be forgiven man according to fundamentalist Christians. And it is an absurd premise to me that a God of “grace” would let all those children of his rot in hell because they didn’t know or didn’t understand how to believe in Him.

If God is a God of love, he would be more loving that the greatest father on earth; and I’m pretty sure that EVERY father on earth who loves his children would never punish ANY of his children for not “believing in” them or their mercy.

That Christ Atoned for the sins of the whole world is typical Christian doctrine (1 John 2:2). That is part of what Grace is all about, it is freely given. But it is up to the individual to determine how much of that grace will be applied which is why both faith and works are required for salvation.

Except for sons of Perdition (those who deny the Holy Ghost), everyone will eventually be saved in some degree as all will at least bow the knee and confess that Jesus is the Christ (intellectual assent). This is because we all kept our "First Estate"; everyone born to earth sided with Christ in the war in heaven.

How valiant one is in obedience and testimony will determine what degree of salvation one will attain. Even Paul knew he wasn't saved yet and was working on his salvation. Some will have to spend time in hell for wickedness (such as murder). Hell lasts forever only for sons of Perdition. In addition, the once saved always saved (OSAS) doctrine of some christians is false as the Bible shows.

What many christians don't realize is that the Gospel is preached in the immediate afterlife and those who never had an opportunity to hear of Jesus will hear of him and that is so we can all be judged by the same standards (1 Peter 3, 1 Peter 4, for example). It is NOT a second opportunity as those who had opportunity in this life and rejected it and then accept it in the afterlife are not eligible for eternal life, the highest degree of salvation.

In addition to degrees of salvation, the early Christian Fathers also taught this doctrine which is pretty good evidence this doctrine was in the Church before the universal apostasy. It has been restored in these latter-days through God's only true Church, the LDS Church.

I say David will be forgiven because a loving father would forgive his wayward son, even if he was on death row. And God is more loving than the most loving earthly father.

He will be as all sins will be forgiven (except for sons of Perdition). But though resurrected into a degree of salvation/glory, he will not be eligible for the highest degree of glory, eternal life, which is life with God as Gods.

[_vessr]

If God is a God of love, he would be more loving that the greatest father on earth; and I’m pretty sure that EVERY father on earth who loves his children would never punish ANY of his children for not “believing in” them or their mercy.

That Christ Atoned for the sins of the whole world is typical Christian doctrine (1 John 2:2). That is part of what Grace is all about, it is freely given. But it is up to the individual to determine how much of that grace will be applied which is why both faith and works are required for salvation.

Except for sons of Perdition (those who deny the Holy Ghost), everyone will eventually be saved in some degree as all will at least bow the knee and confess that Jesus is the Christ (intellectual assent). This is because we all kept our "First Estate"; everyone born to earth sided with Christ in the war in heaven.

How valiant one is in obedience and testimony will determine what degree of salvation one will attain. Even Paul knew he wasn't saved yet and was working on his salvation. Some will have to spend time in hell for wickedness (such as murder). Hell lasts forever only for sons of Perdition. In addition, the once saved always saved (OSAS) doctrine of some christians is false as the Bible shows.

What many christians don't realize is that the Gospel is preached in the immediate afterlife and those who never had an opportunity to hear of Jesus will hear of him and that is so we can all be judged by the same standards (1 Peter 3, 1 Peter 4, for example). It is NOT a second opportunity as those who had opportunity in this life and rejected it and then accept it in the afterlife are not eligible for eternal life, the highest degree of salvation.

In addition to degrees of salvation, the early Christian Fathers also taught this doctrine which is pretty good evidence this doctrine was in the Church before the universal apostasy. It has been restored in these latter-days through God's only true Church, the LDS Church.

I say David will be forgiven because a loving father would forgive his wayward son, even if he was on death row. And God is more loving than the most loving earthly father.

He will be as all sins will be forgiven (except for sons of Perdition). But though resurrected into a degree of salvation/glory, he will not be eligible for the highest degree of glory, eternal life, which is life with God as Gods.

Thanks, bcspace.

Yes, I am familiar with Mormon Doctrine, having been a member for over 30 years. I will approach your response like I did with Albion’s response (although I don’t know that Albion has shown the same respect that you have).

If there is a Christ (and I hope there is) I believe that he atoned for the sins of the whole world. That a father can be full of “grace” and yet allow only a few to live with him after death makes no sense to me, as a father. I would allow all my children back into my home, not just those who believed in me while they were away. In other words, if we all come back to God, like David did, even if after this life and after rejecting the Mormon gospel, I believe a God would save all his children, and be gracious to all of them, if any of them wanted to come and live with him.

This life is just a guessing game, with one religion pitted against another, and one person claiming he or she has the truth and not another.

It looks like David made a mistake which he regretted. If he wants to live with his father after this life, he can, again, regardless of whether he “believes” in and does the “works” of the Mormon God.

If Mormon missionaries want to try to convert others in the Spirit world, that’s their right I suppose. I would extend the same privilege to Jehovah's Witnesses. But how is a man born in any other of the thousands of religions of the world going to know for sure which “gospel” is true? Most are going to follow the teachings of their parents, whether Mormon or otherwise.

I am willing to receive all the grace my “Father and Heaven” is willing to give me; but I won’t believe in him or do his works like the Mormons do, and thus he will NOT let me be with him, because I misunderstood what he is all about, “worlds without end,” according to your doctrine.

That’s not a loving father, in my book. I don’t clear how “unclean” my children are; any are entitled to live with me after this life, whether they believe in me or do my works or not.

“Save to some degree” is a qualifier that is the antithesis of a father, who is no respect or whether his children have sex outside of marriage, rob a bank, or whatever. They can still live with me. And so can David, if he wants.

I will not require my children to “bow the knee” in respect for me or for my oldest son. That is a Christian/Mormon concept that the Muslim or Hindu won’t understand. A Muslim or Hindu will have a hard time accepting Christ as a Savior. So you would say he or she won’t get to live with their Father because of that.

The war in heaven is a Mormon concept that other religions don’t believe as Mormons do. How can anyone know whether the concept is true when the “veil of forgetfulness” covers our minds? The “Spirit” should be with anyone of any religion who desires to feel happiness in this life, according to the dictates of their own conscience.

It does not matter whether my children are “valiant” or not, another Mormon concept. I would still have room in my home, where I live, even if my son messed up like David.

No child of mine deserves the hell that you or Christians claim. They didn’t ask to be born in a home where they might have been abused or neglected to the degree that they might later in life commit a crime. Hell lasts for 1000 years according to your beliefs. That’s too long of a time for my children to spend in such a place.

Your private interpretations of scriptures is not my understanding. So I guess I will spend 1000 years because I don’t understand them, even though I’ve tried to.

To say that the LDS Church is the “only true Church” begs the question, big
time. It is an arrogant doctrine.

To say that David’s sins will be forgiven but he will never be able to live with God is incongruent with the type of forgiveness that a father would extend to a wayward child whom he loves.

You claim to achieve a higher degree that others, including David. You claim that you can become a God, but not David. Well, we don’t go to your college or believe in your God. So the 1000 years of hell awaits us … just like any loving father would do to their child … NOT. Send them to the corner to pout, YES, but not to be estranged from their father forever, never to be able to return and live with him again, because of mistakes made in our 70 or more or less years of life on this God-forsaken planet.