David not in Hell like LDS teach

[_Albion]

Grace increased by works is simply not grace...it negates the very word....grace based on works is not undeserved favor, it is wages earned.

[_vessr]

Grace increased by works is simply not grace...it negates the very word....grace based on works is not undeserved favor, it is wages earned.

On this we agree, Albion. But Mormons believe that Paul meant "By grace we are saved AFTER ALL WE CAN DO." So there's a lot of DOING in the Mormon Church to get to the highest level, where they will live with their Father, but not you and me.

[_Albion]

vessr, you may love your children in ways beyond understanding...you may be willing to forgive them of their short comings and iniquities against you to the point where you will willingly take them in but even your love for your children cannot force them to accept your forgiveness. If they choose not to accept your offer they are out in the cold where they decide to be...their choice, just as it is the choice of unrepentant sinners to remain outside God's love and his offer of a place at his table.

You accuse me of lacking respect for your post...please specify. I fervently disagree with your position and viewpoint and have expressed that...where is the disrespect? Even answering you demonstrates respect for your opinion....or is it that I am not responding in the way and with the answers you think I should?

[_vessr]

A cease fire is hereby proclaimed.

Take care.

[_bcspace]

Grace increased by works is simply not grace...it negates the very word....

Not at all. Grace is always that which God has done that we cannot do for ourselves.

grace based on works is not undeserved favor, it is wages earned

And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.
John 4:36

Jesus has planted the field. It is up to us to harvest. Jesus has laid the table. It is up to us to partake and eat.

[_bcspace]

This life is just a guessing game, with one religion pitted against another, and one person claiming he or she has the truth and not another.

Various enticements from each side, yes. 2 Nephi 2

It looks like David made a mistake which he regretted. If he wants to live with his father after this life, he can, again, regardless of whether he “believes” in and does the “works” of the Mormon God.

There are no other Christian scriptures that conflict with the Bible.

If Mormon missionaries want to try to convert others in the Spirit world, that’s their right I suppose. I would extend the same privilege to Jehovah's Witnesses.

Parable of the Sower.

But how is a man born in any other of the thousands of religions of the world going to know for sure which “gospel” is true? Most are going to follow the teachings of their parents, whether Mormon or otherwise.

No says what an opportunity to join Christ's Church consists of. I personally think it's different for all of us depending on those experiences.

I am willing to receive all the grace my “Father and Heaven” is willing to give me; but I won’t believe in him or do his works like the Mormons do, and thus he will NOT let me be with him, because I misunderstood what he is all about, “worlds without end,” according to your doctrine.

Then you do not accept the Bible as the word of God.

That’s not a loving father, in my book. I don’t clear how “unclean” my children are; any are entitled to live with me after this life, whether they believe in me or do my works or not.

Ditto.

“Save to some degree” is a qualifier that is the antithesis of a father, who is no respect or whether his children have sex outside of marriage, rob a bank, or whatever. They can still live with me. And so can David, if he wants.

Apparently not the antithesis of the Father spoken of in the Bible. See the parable of the talents for example.

I will not require my children to “bow the knee” in respect for me or for my oldest son. That is a Christian/Mormon concept that the Muslim or Hindu won’t understand.

He is more than just a father, he is a God.

A Muslim or Hindu will have a hard time accepting Christ as a Savior. So you would say he or she won’t get to live with their Father because of that.

That doctrine is found often among nonLDS christians.

The war in heaven is a Mormon concept that other religions don’t believe as Mormons do.

All christians probably believe in the war in heaven as it is found in the Bible. However they often put it in the wrong time frame.

How can anyone know whether the concept is true when the “veil of forgetfulness” covers our minds? The “Spirit” should be with anyone of any religion who desires to feel happiness in this life, according to the dictates of their own conscience.

It is. We come to the truth in the same way we can know that Jesus is the Christ.

It does not matter whether my children are “valiant” or not, another Mormon concept. I would still have room in my home, where I live, even if my son messed up like David.

And you have forgiveness and mercy. But no concept of justice to which the Gods also must adhere:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the aleast of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew 25

No child of mine deserves the hell that you or Christians claim. They didn’t ask to be born in a home where they might have been abused or neglected to the degree that they might later in life commit a crime. Hell lasts for 1000 years according to your beliefs. That’s too long of a time for my children to spend in such a place.

Who says your children must be there if they don't accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Certainly not LDS doctrine. Again, that doctrine is found among nonLDS christians.

Your private interpretations of scriptures is not my understanding.

I have not communicated to you any private interpretations. I have given you interpretations from authorized sources (2 Peter 1:20 AND 21)

So I guess I will spend 1000 years because I don’t understand them, even though I’ve tried to.

I doubt it. Are you wicked enough for that? At worst, I'll bet you hear in the afterlife the same Gospel I am preaching to you and if you still reject it, you will obtain the Telestial glory which according to LDS doctrine, is a very nice place. At best, if you did not reject your opportunity here (and no one but God knows what that opportunity consists of) then if you do not reject the Gospel then you could reasonably end up having eternal life in the Celestial glory; life with God as a God.

Admittedly, that last looks highly improbable unless you rejoin yourself to Christ's Church in this life, but who can say?

To say that the LDS Church is the “only true Church” begs the question, big
time. It is an arrogant doctrine.

It is the ONLY logical, rational, merciful, fair, and just doctrine. If God exists, and if you believe He is not a liar and a respector of persons, then there can only be one true and God authorized religion/philosophy. If several or all where true, then He is a liar because of the varying doctrines on the same subject and He is a respector of persons because He treats everyone by a different standard with different requirements for salvation and right living etc.

To say that David’s sins will be forgiven but he will never be able to live with God is incongruent with the type of forgiveness that a father would extend to a wayward child whom he loves.

But not incongruent with the concept of an honest God who has a work to do in bringing to pass the eternal life of man. You know that Satan guaranteed salvation with his plan (which by the way dovetails with Liberalism/Socialism, philosophies which are at war with God) but that would not have produced any fruit. No trials. No faith. No growth.

And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
Malachi 3:17

You claim to achieve a higher degree that others, including David. You claim that you can become a God, but not David.

Yep. Murder is pretty serious.

Well, we don’t go to your college or believe in your God.

It is true that you don't seem to accept the Bible as the word of God.

on this God-forsaken planet.

It certainly is tough to understand the world when you don't understand it's purpose. You have indeed lost the doctrine that would light your soul if you would but let it.

[_Albion]

I think you need to go back and reread the chapter in John to place the verse in context. Jesus himself sowed the seed of conversion in the Samaritan woman but the disciples would share in reaping the harvest that convert would create among the Samaritans. The wages spoken of here is the joy of saving souls...has nothing to do with grace specifically. Grace is the UNEARNED favor of God. As I said, if you can work to get more it ceases to be unearned and becomes something you are due in return.

[_vessr]

Grace increased by works is simply not grace...it negates the very word....

Not at all. Grace is always that which God has done that we cannot do for ourselves.

grace based on works is not undeserved favor, it is wages earned

And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.
John 4:36

Jesus has planted the field. It is up to us to harvest. Jesus has laid the table. It is up to us to partake and eat.

I extend to you the peace offering of a truce, bcspace. Good luck in your battle with Albion. (For it is a battle of words, if not for souls.) Your post is according to the Mormon belief system. Albion’s is based on a different belief system. Mine is different from you both. That’s why I believe that life is just a guessing game, with one religion pitted against another, and one person claiming he or she has the truth and not another. Peace.

[_Quasimodo]

I extend to you the peace offering of a truce, bcspace. Good luck in your battle with Albion. (For it is a battle of words, if not for souls.) Your post is according to the Mormon belief system. Albion’s is based on a different belief system. Mine is different from you both. That’s why I believe that life is just a guessing game, with one religion pitted against another, and one person claiming he or she has the truth and not another. Peace.

Very nice, vessr. +1

[_bcspace]

I think you need to go back and reread the chapter in John to place the verse in context

I think you[general] need to stop cherry-picking verses and start establishing a doctrine that accounts for all verses. You then might come close to the revealed word of God in the Bible and as taught by the LDS Church.

For example, even Paul admitted to the saints in Philippi that he was not saved yet and that we work out our own salvation.

Grace is the UNEARNED favor of God.

LDS completely agree.

As I said, if you can work to get more it ceases to be unearned and becomes something you are due in return

The scriptures do not propose any such thing. Jesus died for all and all ave opportunity to inherit the highest degree of salvation. However, the scriptures are clear that one must work to take advantage of the available grace.