Posting 95 LDS Theses on the Church Doors

[_thews]

Why is it so difficult for you to just admit the truth?

I've stated the truth as factually and clearly as I can. Your confusion and often incoherent remarks is simply a reflection of your failure to accept the facts and grasp basic concepts.

No, you've stated the data you choose to acknowledge while ignoring the data that doesn't support your theory. I call it "your" theory, as you've had to throw Emma Smith, Martin Harris, David Whitmer, LDS publications and FairMormon under the bus to support it.

One more thing Tobin, Joseph Smith's brother Hyrum suggested he use the "Urim and Thummim" in 1843. Since the LDS church has both the white and chocolate seer stones used by Joseph Smith, what happened to your theorized version of the "Urim and Thummim" Hyrum was referring to?

The Lord has the U&T and the plates too. This is well known and understood in Mormonism.

Really? Well known by whom? All you did, was, again, fail to answer the question. You're incorrect Tobin. There never was an "Urim and Thummim" outside of the Nephite spectacles and Joseph Smith's seer stones. If you want to continue to parrot the same thing, I already heard your theory, but you've posted nothing to back it up, while ignoring all the data that proves it incorrect.

[_Tobin]

thews,

We can go around and around on this till the second coming. It is not my job to fix your befuddled and often incoherent views of this matter. I've repeatedly pointed out that you ignore what Joseph Smith and anyone else has said concerning this matter after a certain date because of your highly distorted and short-sighted opinions. I see no point to further discussion with on you this topic nor can I imagine why any Mormon would?!? You just have some very odd views that have little bearing on what was claimed and clearly stated here and I really don't think you have anything to contribute to the topic in general.

[_thews]

thews,

We can go around and around on this till the second coming. It is not my job to fix your befuddled and often incoherent views of this matter. I've repeatedly pointed out that you ignore what Joseph Smith and anyone else has said concerning this matter after a certain date because of your highly distorted and short-sighted opinions. I see no point to further discussion with on you this topic nor can I imagine why any Mormon would?!? You just have some very odd views that have little bearing on what was claimed and clearly stated here and I really don't think you have anything to contribute to the topic in general.

Ignorance is bliss Tobin. You've stated FairMormon is wrong, along with the Ensign, but somehow you are correct... you aren't, but I understand why you simply cannot admit that Joseph Smith's seer stones are the Urim and Thummim. You also can't admit that Joseph Smith claimed he could translate Egyptian. These are facts and not my opinion. The reason you can't acknowledge the truth, is because it creates dissonance between what you want to be true, and what you acknowledge is false. At least I know that you know the truth Tobin. The next time you shamefully call someone a liar, I hope you apply the standard to yourself. Your cognitive dissonance can only keep the truth in check for so long... we'll see.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Seer_stones

In the stone box containing the gold plates, Joseph found what Book of Mormon prophets referred to as “interpreters,” or a “stone, . . . . He described the instrument as “spectacles” and referred to it using an Old Testament term, Urim and Thummim. . . . He also sometimes applied the term to other stones he possessed, called “seer stones” because they aided him in receiving revelations as a seer. The Prophet received some early revelations through the use of these seer stones.
— "Great and Marvelous Are the Revelations of God," Ensign, (January 2013).

There is considerable evidence that the location of the plates and Nephite interpreters (Urim and Thummim) were revealed to Joseph via his second, white seer stone. In 1859, Martin Harris recalled that "Joseph had a stone which was dug from the well of Mason Chase...It was by means of this stone he first discovered the plates."

[_KevinSim]

Have you ever read the original 95 theses? They were also remarkably repetitive and mostly focused on Catholic notions of penance and indulgences. Martin Luther sure was an idiot!

He wasn't an idiot; he just wasn't very realistically trying to get the Roman Catholic Church to listen to him.

[_KevinSim]

I see you've again taken the position of claiming documented facts are "absurd" without addressing anything to substantiate your claim. It's the same position ldsfaqs has, which is understandable, as your claims are both unfounded. C'mon Tobin, you have 95 "absurd" facts to choose from. You can't find one to make your point?

Here I'll step in and do Tobin's task. I'm not exactly sure what the problem is about #1 so I'll skip it. I personally disagree with the assertions made in #2, #3, and #4.

[_Tobin]

Here I'll step in and do Tobin's task. I'm not exactly sure what the problem is about #1 so I'll skip it. I personally disagree with the assertions made in #2, #3, and #4.

Well have fun. If I were you, I wouldn't waste my time with this guy. He really has no idea what he's talking about.

I'm not wrong at all ... but it doesn't surprise me how easily you discount numerous facts in order to grasp onto one entry in church history (written by an unknown author after Joseph Smith died) to make your supposed point.

This is his view of an article (http://www.centerplace.org/history/ts/v3n14.htm) published in the Times and Seasons on May 16, 1842 while Joseph Smith was alive and was the editor of the newspaper. I think that quote summarizes how accurately thews understands Mormonism and how distorted his view of the facts really are.

[_KevinSim]

You can make the same argument for the Christian Church: "either God established the CHRISTIAN Church as an organization that would never need reformation or He didn't. If God is God, and Omnipotent and Omniscient, why could He not preserve the Church established by His Son, Jesus? Why preserve an organization established by Joseph Smith, whose life was far from sinless as we all know?

If God is "Omnipotent and Omniscient," I imagine God could do a lot of things. People talk about the terms omnipotent and omniscient as if those terms are well defined. What exactly do they mean, Servant? I am aware that most people roughly define them as having all power and having all knowledge, or even able to do all things and knowing all things, but what do those definitions mean?

I also know of no reason to conclude that God is either Omnipotent or Omniscient. Granted John's Gospel does at one point call God omnipotent, but it isn't at all clear to me what exactly that Gospel meant. And nowhere in the Bible does it call God omniscient. Sure, the picture it draws of God is one who sees the end from the beginning, but in how much detail? Does God know every single detail down to the atomic level of every physical transaction that will ever take place in the future? Or is God's knowledge of the future more general?

I think it's totally possible that God could have preserved the Church established by His Son if for some reason God realized His plan made that necessary. I don't know any reason to believe God realized His plan made that necessary.

[_KevinSim]

There is actually a pretty straightfoward way to resolve this question.


(Hint--It has to do with the fact that one of the two parties is ldsfaqs.)

Consiglieri, are you saying that I should conclude that one party is right because of the reputation of the other party?

[Guest]

Well have fun. If I were you, I wouldn't waste my time with this guy. He really has no idea what he's talking about.

I'm not wrong at all ... but it doesn't surprise me how easily you discount numerous facts in order to grasp onto one entry in church history (written by an unknown author after Joseph Smith died) to make your supposed point.

This is his view of an article (http://www.centerplace.org/history/ts/v3n14.htm) published in the Times and Seasons on May 16, 1842 while Joseph Smith was alive and was the editor of the newspaper. I think that quote summarizes how accurately thews understands Mormonism and how distorted his view of the facts really are.

Tobin wanna cracker? As you continue to parrot the same tired distortion, "your" theory that the Urim and Thummim were separate from the Nephite spectacles and Joseph Smith's seer stones is incorrect. Answer the question Tobin. What did you theorized Urim and Thummim look like? What happened to them?

[Guest]

I see you've again taken the position of claiming documented facts are "absurd" without addressing anything to substantiate your claim. It's the same position ldsfaqs has, which is understandable, as your claims are both unfounded. C'mon Tobin, you have 95 "absurd" facts to choose from. You can't find one to make your point?

Here I'll step in and do Tobin's task. I'm not exactly sure what the problem is about #1 so I'll skip it. I personally disagree with the assertions made in #2, #3, and #4.

Ok. Can you answer the following questions then?

2. There is no archaeological evidence of the Book of Mormon, a fact that seriously undermines its authenticity claims.

Please point out one single piece of tangible evidence that supports the historicity of the Book of Mormon.

3. The Book of Mormon is filled with anachronisms that also damage credibility as a Divine record.

So many to choose from. I'll let someone else handle this one if they want. Which one listed in this Wiki entry do you disagree with most?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anachronis ... achronisms

4. DNA evidence shows that Native Americans do not come from Middle Eastern heritage. Recently, the Church changed its claim that "the Lamanites are the principal ancestors of the American Indians" to the Lamanites "are among the ancestors of the American Indians".

This one isn't my area either, so I'll let someone else take it if they want to. What part of the enclosed link do you disagree with?
http://20truths.information/Mormon/dna.html

Out of curiosity Kevin, can you tell me exactly what the Urim and Thummim is?