Conservatives don't really care about Abortions

[_Kevin Graham]

New York City’s Teen Pregnancy Rate Plummeted After High Schools Expanded Access To Plan B

Why don't they follow their own logic they use in the gun control debate? It is an empirical fact that neither outlawing abortion nor killing doctors will prevent abortions, so why not just go with the only proven measure that has shown to dramatically decrease them?

By opposing all forms of legislation designed to expand access to contraceptives, they're essentially taking part in killing these poor innocent babies.

[_EAllusion]

Plan B is opposed by strong pro-lifers because they view it as potentially a form of abortion.

[_EAllusion]

By opposing all forms of legislation designed to expand access to contraceptives, they're essentially taking part in killing these poor innocent babies.

This logic is ridiculous, by the way. We generally don't and shouldn't consider a person personally responsible for a crime for merely failing to prevent it unless that prevention was the morally obvious course of action with little risk or cost to that person. I don't see how every program intended to expand access to contraceptives qualifies. This is doubly true if you take on the (false) premise a notable % of pro-lifers do that contraceptives are morally wrong too.

Further, suppose it were the case that decriminalizing murder paradoxically led to less murders occurring. While this may lead one to argue a consequence-based case for not penalizing people for murder, it does not follow that anyone who does not favor this position is "essentially taking part in murder." It's entirely possible to imagine that people have duties, for example to punish murder, that result in ostensibly less desirable consequences. It's not an obviously false enough position to go ahead and consider those who adopt it in this scenario murderers.

[_EAllusion]

On an aside, it's not an empirical fact that outlawing abortion does not prevent abortions. Or, to be more accurate, it is not an empirical fact that outlawing abortions does not reduce the frequency of abortions. It's an empirical fact that outlawing homicide doesn't prevent homicide in every case, but it almost certainly reduces the chances of it happening, which is something we care about. Abortions would still happen it if was illegal, but if it was a criminal offense with heavy penalties attached to it, it almost certainly would reduce in frequency. A dangerous black market would arise due to the criminalization because it is a highly demanded service, but it's much easier to combat abortions than it is cocaine due to the complexity of the procedure.

[_palerobber]

This is doubly true if you take on the (false) premise a notable % of pro-lifers do that contraceptives are morally wrong too.

i couldn't tell what you meant here.

[_EAllusion]

This is doubly true if you take on the (false) premise a notable % of pro-lifers do that contraceptives are morally wrong too.

i couldn't tell what you meant here.

If contraception is morally wrong, then it's even less obvious that failing to provide contraception is equivalent to taking part in murder.

[_ludwigm]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... birth.html

Nine-year-old girl 'gives birth'

The girl, identified only as Dafne, was just over eight when she became pregnant, her mother told local officials in Jalisco state, Mexico.
...
Last year, a 10-year-old girl in Colombia gave birth to a baby girl.

[#img] http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/arc ... 42007b.jpg[/img]

[_palerobber]

If contraception is morally wrong, then it's even less obvious that failing to provide contraception is equivalent to taking part in murder.

first of all, Kevin Graham used the term "killing" which has a different legal and everyday meaning from your term of "murder". but even in using the term "killing" Kevin was just using the POV of the anti-abortionists themselves. the point of Kevin's post wasn't to classify a crime equivalent, but rather to assign responsibility for an outcome (for all we know Kevin doesn't himself consider that outcome to be any sort of crime).

limiting access to contraception has consequences, and the people who lobby for such limits bear some responsibility for those outcomes, including an increased rate of abortion.

whether or not contraception is morally wrong is irrelevant, since even moral actions can have negative side effects for which we are no less responsible. and the anti-abortionists' opinion about the morality of contraception is certainly irrelevant -- we don't relieve people of responsibility for the consequences of their actions just because they've got some distorted concept of morality by which they feel justified.

[_EAllusion]

first of all, Kevin Graham used the term "killing" which has a different legal and everyday meaning from your term of "murder". but even in using the term "killing" Kevin was just using the POV of the anti-abortionists themselves. the point of Kevin's post wasn't to classify a crime equivalent, but rather to assign responsibility for an outcome (for all we know Kevin doesn't himself consider that outcome to be any sort of crime).

"Responsible for killing" is a phrase that necessarily takes on a moral character. "Who is responsible for X?" is a moral question. My response is predicated on taking on the POV of a pro-lifer as well. That's why I added the additional comment about being anti-contraceptive.

limiting access to contraception has consequences,

No. I think you mean failing to force others to increase access. There's a difference. Failing to provide something is not exactly equivalent to restricting access to something. Kevin's post about Plan B uses that as a springboard to refer to opposing government expansion of contraceptive access (and education.)

It is the case that restricting access to guns, in at least some cases, results in deaths that otherwise would not have happened. (Whether the prevention of the restriction outweighs this is a separate question.) It does make sense that gun control advocates are responsible for those killings. The killers are.