Book of Mormon Borrowings from the New Testament

[_bcuzbcuz]

Thanks, Tobin. Yes, if the Lord called me to repentance personally, I would do the same. I am seeking to be honest in my inquiry after the truth. I am seeking the Lord as diligently as I believe I can. I seek to be kind, love and serve others. I would be pleased to have God answer me and bless me.

I may have more pain to go through, as you did, before I'm done with my inquiry. Thank you for your prayers and for your great hope that the Lord will visit and speak the truth to me. I hope I will be open to it. I'm trying to be open to any truth, however it will be revealed to me.

I've read your posts and about the events in your life that have swayed towards and away from religion but I have to say I don't buy either Tobin's statement or yours about being called to repentance.

If I suddenly felt that God had personally called me to repentance, like Saul of old, or any number of latter-day saved, the first thing I would do is question my own sanity. I've conversed with and am related to a number of people who swear that God has personally spoken to them and told them of danger in their path or sudden calamity, and I find it all nonsense.

First of all, God seems to get personally involved in amazingly mundane things, like where to find treasure or which bus to climb on to, but seems stupefyingly ill-informed about the health of millions upon millions of people around the world. Secondly, I do not want to be saved and would be exceedingly unhappy having to spend my life with other "saved souls" and I wonder why this so-called God would bother trying to wake me from among the 'walking dead'. Thirdly, when I start hearing voices, especially ones who have a special message for me, it's like browsing through foreign markets as a tourist with shop keeper's yelling after me, "Where you from? Buy this! Special price for you, my friend." In other words, more BS.

[_Tobin]

Of course bcuzbcuz. You aren't unique in that. In the scriptures, many have seen signs, wonders, and the Lord and would not accept him or any of the things they saw. They are unrecoverable and are ready for the fire. Nothing can be done for you unless you will repent (something you stated you will not do even when confronted by the Lord himself) and so you destroy yourself in the end. You will stand in the very presense of God and deny the truth standing in front of you, knowing you died and that you can not be possibly insane. You are perdition. Remember, Satan stood in the very presense of God, knowing all he did and did the same thing and denied the truth and turned away. I'm sure you are just as capable of turning against God and denying the truth. It is a bad way to end up, but ultimately it is your choice.

[_Molok]

Of course bcuzbcuz. You aren't unique in that. In the scriptures, many have seen signs, wonders, and the Lord and would not accept him or any of the things they saw. They are unrecoverable and are ready for the fire. Nothing can be done for you unless you will repent (something you stated you will not do even when confronted by the Lord himself) and so you destroy yourself in the end. You will stand in the very presense of God and deny the truth standing in front of you, knowing you died and that you can not be possibly insane. You are perdition. Remember, Satan stood in the very presense of God, knowing all he did and did the same thing and denied the truth and turned away. I'm sure you are just as capable of turning against God and denying the truth. It is a bad way to end up, but ultimately it is your choice.

I love it when religious types share their revenge fantasies, it tells us all just how messed up inside you really are.

[_vessr]

Of course bcuzbcuz. You aren't unique in that. In the scriptures, many have seen signs, wonders, and the Lord and would not accept him or any of the things they saw. They are unrecoverable and are ready for the fire. Nothing can be done for you unless you will repent (something you stated you will not do even when confronted by the Lord himself) and so you destroy yourself in the end. You will stand in the very presense of God and deny the truth standing in front of you, knowing you died and that you can not be possibly insane. You are perdition. Remember, Satan stood in the very presense of God, knowing all he did and did the same thing and denied the truth and turned away. I'm sure you are just as capable of turning against God and denying the truth. It is a bad way to end up, but ultimately it is your choice.

That's enough, Tobin. Please focus on the subject matter of the thread and not get into handing out your person judgments against others.

You would have in your special kingdom Ghandi and Martin Luther King, but not bcuzbcuz? You say that bcuzbcuz must repent or be destroyed, but Ghandi or King won’t have to repent because they’ve done good works?

How can you judge what “good works” bcuzbcuz has done in this life or whether King did good works at all, in terms of his personal life? We all know his cause was just, but was his personal life just in his dealings with his fellow men and women? We don't know and can't any more than you can know and judge bcuzbcuz.

Why are you so sure that bcuzbcuz has not spent his life trying to be good to his neighbor, even if he doesn’t believe your belief system (that neither ghandi nor King shared with you either)?

If there is a God and bcuzbcuz stood in his “presence” he would likely acknowledge God and ask him where he’s been all his life. You called him “perdition,” and I find your judgment harsh, unchristian, and even unMormon. You are putting him in the same category as Satan, or worse, which is also an unfair judgment to make of another human being.

Perdition, even according to Mormonism, is only for those who had a perfect knowledge of God in this life and then turned away completely from it. How can you judge whether Bcuzbuz has had such knowledge?

I’m tired of you saying it’s our choice if we rot in hell. It is NOT our choice. We don’t believe in hell, but if we did, it is not place we would choose to live.

This thread is about questioning the ways in which Joseph Smith came up with the Book of Mormon in the face of so many borrowings from the New Testament. Let’s stick with that please. It is NOT about you deciding the eternal fate of people in this forum. Enough, already.

[_Tobin]

That's enough, Tobin. Please focus on the subject matter of the thread and not get into handing out your person judgments against others.

It has nothing to do with me and you are really delusional if you'd put bcuzbcuz in the same category as MLK or Gandhi. He is nothing like them. They were humble, god-fearing men of character. These men would never have said the things bcuzbcuz has said in his arrogance. They would not stand before God and call him a delusion. In fact, they would recognize the Lord because they were like him. bcuzbcuz is nothing like that.

And I think the scriptures are pretty clear what happens to those that have seen great signs and miracles and the Lord and turn against him. If you think you can stand before God and deny him, I've got news for you - it is going to end badly for you. If you want to call that a personal judgement, so be it. You need to wake up and smell what you are shoveling here. The Lord will not be mocked and you may think a lot of yourself, but do not think for one moment you or anyone are going to stand before the Lord and lie and get away with it. Who do you think you are in comparison to God?!? In fact, it is inevitable that you will see and speak with the Lord - in this life or the next. You can not avoid it and you had better get used to the idea and prepare for it. I know absolutely that it will happen and if that offends you, too bad.

And just a FYI - perdition is all those that will turn against God knowing he is God and standing before them. Calling bcuzbcuz perdition because he stated he would stand before the Lord and call him a delusion and deny God in his very presense is EXACTLY what perdition would do. Also, you can turn and choose to be perdition at any moment you wish and has nothing to do with this world. As I said, Satan was in the very presense of God and denied God and did so knowing all he did. Don't think for a moment that you are not just as capable of doing the same, so beware.

[_vessr]

That's enough, Tobin. Please focus on the subject matter of the thread and not get into handing out your person judgments against others.

It has nothing to do with me and you are really delusional if you'd put bcuzbcuz in the same category as MLK or Gandhi. He is nothing like them. They were humble, god-fearing men of character. These men would never have said the things bcuzbcuz has said in his arrogance. They would not stand before God and call him a delusion. In fact, they would recognize the Lord because they were like him. bcuzbcuz is nothing like that.

And I think the scriptures are pretty clear what happens to those that have seen great signs and miracles and the Lord and turn against him. If you think you can stand before God and deny him, I've got news for you - it is going to end badly for you. If you want to call that a personal judgement, so be it. You need to wake up and smell what you are shoveling here. The Lord will not be mocked and you may think a lot of yourself, but do not think for one moment you or anyone are going to stand before the Lord and lie and get away with it. Who do you think you are in comparison to God?!? In fact, it is inevitable that you will see and speak with the Lord - in this life or the next. You can not avoid it and you had better get used to the idea and prepare for it. I know absolutely that it will happen and if that offends you, too bad.

And just a FYI - perdition is all those that will turn against God knowing he is God and standing before them. Calling bcuzbcuz perdition because he stated he would stand before the Lord and call him a delusion and deny God in his very presense is EXACTLY what perdition would do. Also, you can turn and choose to be perdition at any moment you wish and has nothing to do with this world. As I said, Satan was in the very presense of God and denied God and did so knowing all he did. Don't think for a moment that you are not just as capable of doing the same, so beware.

Ok Tobin. Now that you've had your say, again, and have laid out your judgment against others here, let's move on to the subject at hand. They are three questions:

(1) Do these parallelisms create a pattern establishing that Joseph Smith copied New Testament words and phrases as he was translating or writing, as the case may be, the Book of Mormon?; (2) If the answer to the first question is in the affirmative, what does this tell us about how to Book of Mormon was created?; and (3) Would it be helpful if I produced hundreds of these parallelisms between Book of Mormon and New Testament phrases and sentences?

I believe the last question has been answered with a "No". If there are people willing to respond to the first two questions, great. If not, let's let the thread die, mercifully.

[_Themis]

Yes it does establish a pattern of Joseph and any involved with him in copying from the Bible. The only other option makes no sense and we see no one even trying to come up with a reasonable explanation to the questions raised about it. It tells us that the Bible was used extensively, not to mention other sources and ideas already in society about how the Natives came to the Americas. The core story of the Book of Mormon existed long before the Book of Mormon was published. As to question 3, it would be helpful for some.

[_ludwigm]

I think I've not stressed enough my viewpoint.
I don't care KJV (one version of many English translations).

There are other languages than English. I think this can be a common start...

jot (stupid transcript of iota, because it should be pronounce as YOld Testament...) can be found in 3 Nephi 12:18 and in Alma 34:13 and in 3 Nephi 1:25 - a greek character written in Reformed Egyptian. (for proper representation of that character, show the Church's official sites - if You can find it...)
Tittle as meaning small breast. You know it!

Nothing to do with KJV.
jot, iota, tittle are something to do with greek, Nicene Creed, and history of christianity in Europe - nothing to do with Indian Jews.

As one of Latin expressions (something other not known by Indian Jews):
Lucifer

Isaiah 14:12
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

2 Nephi 24:12
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! Art thou cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations!

No other Bible use the word Lucifer... It is from Latin, "morning star" for the Romans - and for all other folks' Bible.
Should I cite German, Hungarian or any other Bible? You can check any of them at "http://unbound.biola.edu/". They are not anti-mormon. They are not pro-mormon. They are as neutral as any religious text can.
No Lucifer. Translations of "morning star".

*****************************
Your "borrowings" and "parallels" are sound.
But the pictures are more wide (even I can't show any pictures)...

You are thinking in English, especially utahn-LDS English.
The world is bigger than that.
People around the world have translated the Bible - without King James (whose followers called Jacobeans, not Jameseans but don't care).
None of them use he word Lucifer - as it is the Latin name of Venus, the Morning Star.

Morning star is the name given to the planet Venus when it appears in the east before sunrise (as though heralding the coming of the morning). "Phosphorus" or "Light-Bringer" (Greek Φωσφόρος Phōsphoros) is the ancient Greek mythological name for the planet. It is also named Ἑωσφόρος, Heosphoros, "Dawn-bringer".

[_bcuzbcuz]

I think I've not stressed enough my viewpoint.
I don't care KJV (one version of many English translations).

There are other languages than English. I think this can be a common start...

jot (stupid transcript of iota, because it should be pronounce as YOld Testament...) can be found in 3 Nephi 12:18 and in Alma 34:13 and in 3 Nephi 1:25 - a greek character written in Reformed Egyptian. (for proper representation of that character, show the Church's official sites - if You can find it...)
Tittle as meaning small breast. You know it!

Nothing to do with KJV.
jot, iota, tittle are something to do with greek, Nicene Creed, and history of christianity in Europe - nothing to do with Indian Jews.

As one of Latin expressions (something other not known by Indian Jews):
Lucifer

Isaiah 14:12
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

2 Nephi 24:12
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! Art thou cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations!

No other Bible use the word Lucifer... It is from Latin, "morning star" for the Romans - and for all other folks' Bible.
Should I cite German, Hungarian or any other Bible? You can check any of them at "http://unbound.biola.edu/". They are not anti-mormon. They are not pro-mormon. They are as neutral as any religious text can.
No Lucifer. Translations of "morning star".

*****************************
Your "borrowings" and "parallels" are sound.
But the pictures are more wide (even I can't show any pictures)...

You are thinking in English, especially utahn-LDS English.
The world is bigger than that.
People around the world have translated the Bible - without King James (whose followers called Jacobeans, not Jameseans but don't care).
None of them use he word Lucifer - as it is the Latin name of Venus, the Morning Star.

Morning star is the name given to the planet Venus when it appears in the east before sunrise (as though heralding the coming of the morning). "Phosphorus" or "Light-Bringer" (Greek Φωσφόρος Phōsphoros) is the ancient Greek mythological name for the planet. It is also named Ἑωσφόρος, Heosphoros, "Dawn-bringer".

I agree with your post, totally. The verse in Isaiah you quote does not contain any word similar to Lucifer in the Swedish, Danish or Norwegian bibles. In the Swedish and Danish the verse says "bright shining morning star." The Norwegian says "bright shining star."

[_ludwigm]

I agree with your post, totally. The verse in Isaiah you quote does not contain any word similar to Lucifer in the Swedish, Danish or Norwegian bibles. In the Swedish and Danish the verse says "bright shining morning star." The Norwegian says "bright shining star."

Are You a Scandinavian?
(I know, I know, nothing about revealing real in real life...)

I am Hungarian (in other words, Martian...)

I've checked all bibles written in Latin characters. (My main source is unbound.biola.edu/).
There is no Lucifer in any of European languages (anyway, Old World...)
Only in English.

The Latin Vulgata Clementina says: "Quomodo cecidisti de cælo, Lucifer, qui mane oriebaris ? corruisti in terram, qui vulnerabas gentes ?"

Translators of King James (called Jacobeans; stupid James <> Jacob spelling thing in English, by the way) have used the Vulgata.

Amerjews/amerhebrews/amerindians/nephites/lamanites/lehites/anti-nephi-lehites have used the same word.

You know, the "uneducated farmboy" in XIX century...