Anonymous Source Confirms Hit Piece

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_TrashcanMan79
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Re: Anonymous Source Confirms Hit Piece

Post by _TrashcanMan79 »

Wiki Wonka wrote:...the essay also includes quotes from Dehlin's public Facebook feed (unlike Dan Peterson's private Facebook feed, which was recently copied to this board)...

Hi, Wiki Wonka. The thread at Dan's Facebook profile was (and is at this writing) public. Please stop lying. Thanks in advance.

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_wayfarer
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Re: Anonymous Source Confirms Hit Piece

Post by _wayfarer »

Wiki Wonka wrote:2) It is a review of Mormon Stories, or, perhaps more accurately, the Mormon Stories "movement." In doing so, it extensively quotes John Dehlin and explores his publicly stated motivations behind Mormon Stories (and, if I recall, talks a bit about some material that was posted on StayLDS). There are quotes from an interview with the Larsens. Since the essay also includes quotes from Dehlin's public Facebook feed (unlike Dan Peterson's private Facebook feed, which was recently copied to this board), Kishkumen will, without a doubt, consider it a hit piece.


Thank you for your thoughtful response.

I second Kishkumen's comments on your response. One area of concern, having seen some of these guys in action, is that when they select quotes from the podcasts, particularly the John Larsen podcast, they fail to put the quote in context. If I say, for example, that there is "no reason" to believe in a literal Christ as son of God, that doesn't mean I don't believe it, but rather, that such a claim cannot be proven through reason. If the interviewee later states that he chooses to believe anyway, and the reviewer omits that material comment, then the reviewer has altered the meaning of the interviewee. Did the reviewer lie? No -- he quoted the interviewee accurately, but not completely.

I laud your work at FAIR in trying to present issues as even-handedly as possible -- it's a vital resource, mainly because it tries to be as factual and complete as possible -- at least it does at its best.

But as dblagent noted, there are some in the Mormon apologist community who use disingenuous picking from words to take offense and then discredit the person. All of the ones mentioned have done this. Dan, particularly, makes claims he doesn't read my posts, then quotes my words verbatim -- something that only was stated in my post, then makes a caricature of it -- a strawman -- and distorts the meaning of the original post. This is disingenuous and wrong. All of them have an objective: when they consider an individual to be a threat to the church, then they will do all they can to discredit, label, and dismiss the individual. They fail to read the argument, or even address it in the least -- it's always about the person, not the argument.

They have declared war on "cultural Mormons", on those who ask "why stay", and in particular, those who remain active while holding what they consider to be threatening views. To them, we are the "anti-christ", and while they claim they didn't use the word, they stand firmly behind the article that does. It betrays their intention -- one which will reap the anger it sows.
_MsJack
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Re: Anonymous Source Confirms Hit Piece

Post by _MsJack »

TrashcanMan79 wrote:
Wiki Wonka wrote:...the essay also includes quotes from Dehlin's public Facebook feed (unlike Dan Peterson's private Facebook feed, which was recently copied to this board)...

Hi, Wiki Wonka. The thread at Dan's Facebook profile was (and is at this writing) public. Please stop lying. Thanks in advance.

Why do you assume that he's lying as opposed to being honestly mistaken?

For the record, Wiki, I'm not Facebook "friends" with Dan and I can see his feed, so yeah, looks like it's set to public. Whether that is intentional on Dan's part or not, I do not know.

I generally don't view the rooting out of motivations as a particularly worthy scholarly endeavor, at least not for living subjects. Like you, I'd rather just stick to evaluating what they are saying or arguing and leave it at that.

As ever, thanks for coming here and weighing in.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

My Blogs: Weighted Glory | Worlds Without End: A Mormon Studies Roundtable | Twitter
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Anonymous Source Confirms Hit Piece

Post by _Res Ipsa »

A mistake is just that. Anyone can make them. I do wish we could drop the whole mistake=lie thing.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Kishkumen
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Re: Anonymous Source Confirms Hit Piece

Post by _Kishkumen »

robuchan wrote:I don't how you guys can have so much energy arguing over whether or not an unpublished article is a hit piece or not.


Personally, I don't value the denials worth a handful of tepid spit. Indeed, I find the whole attempt to deny it absolutely incredible.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kishkumen
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Re: Anonymous Source Confirms Hit Piece

Post by _Kishkumen »

Sethbag wrote:The problem with arguing over that is that the language contains a lot of linguistic imprecision, on purpose. Not to mention the term is metaphorical in the first place. It's not like you read this piece and a fist reaches out of the paper (or your screen) and punches you in the face.

Is Midgely a dickhead? I suppose you could argue that no, Midgely is not in fact the giant glans of a penis. So the answer is, inarguably, no. Misses the point, but constitutes a valid (if trivial) linguistic argument.


I view the whole attempt to say it wasn't a hit piece to be the usual kind of hair-splitting argument that some apologists, especially the classic-FARMS crew, habitually engage in.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that a classic-FARMS apologist emailed my work account and asked me to consider how I would feel if he contacted my dean or department chairman about the fact that I had spent a good deal of time on MDB attacking the LDS Church. Then, when I replied that I didn't appreciate his threats, he were to point out that he had stipulated at the outset that he was not threatening me, only asking me to consider how it would feel.

Now, you and I know that one does not go down that road unless the intent is to threaten, but this person would insist that he had stipulated at the outset that he was not threatening me.

This is the kind of ludicrous word-splitting these guys engage in all the time. It is silly to the point of juvenile, and only a total partisan would buy into it. I have no idea why Wiki Wonka is insisting something to the contrary. But it is obvious from his description that this is, indeed, a hit piece.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kishkumen
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Re: Anonymous Source Confirms Hit Piece

Post by _Kishkumen »

MsJack wrote:Why do you assume that he's lying as opposed to being honestly mistaken?


I think he is honestly mistaken in line with his biases. He thinks that a number of us are fiends without a conscience who would violate Dan's privacy in a heartbeat, when the truth is that I, for one, went out of my way to get the Facebook capture taken down from MDB despite the fact that his post was set to "public."

That's the kind of consideration one gets for striving to be fair: close to none.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_TrashcanMan79
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Re: Anonymous Source Confirms Hit Piece

Post by _TrashcanMan79 »

Wonka's sanctimonious comparison of the hit piece's use of Facebook material to the Facebook material brought here left him open to a sanctimonious correction.

I was happy to provide it.

Brad Hudson wrote:A mistake is just that. Anyone can make them. I do wish we could drop the whole mistake=lie thing.

MsJack wrote:
TrashcanMan79 wrote:Hi, Wiki Wonka. The thread at Dan's Facebook profile was (and is at this writing) public. Please stop lying. Thanks in advance.

Why do you assume that he's lying as opposed to being honestly mistaken?
_MsJack
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Re: Anonymous Source Confirms Hit Piece

Post by _MsJack »

TrashcanMan79 wrote:Wonka's sanctimonious comparison of the hit piece's use of Facebook material to the Facebook material brought here left him open to a sanctimonious correction.

I was happy to provide it

Just one more thought, and then I'll drop it. Always assuming the absolute worst about critics' motives is part of what makes bad apologists bad. Do you really want to be like that?

In any case, a correction is a correction and I'm glad you pointed this out.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

My Blogs: Weighted Glory | Worlds Without End: A Mormon Studies Roundtable | Twitter
_Cicero
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Re: Anonymous Source Confirms Hit Piece

Post by _Cicero »

MsJack wrote:For the record, Wiki, I'm not Facebook "friends" with Dan and I can see his feed, so yeah, looks like it's set to public. Whether that is intentional on Dan's part or not, I do not know.


I am also not a friend of Dan. I assumed it was public since I could see it.
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