Anonymous Source Confirms Hit Piece
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Re: Anonymous Source Confirms Hit Piece
To me it seems that the apologetics business is inherently thuggish. "Defending the faith" naturally turns into attacking "deviant" versions of it (i.e. of faith) that appear threatening (rightly or wrongly), the same way defending the structural integrity of a biological organism involves killing cells deemed dangerous (rightly or wrongly). I see the "old guard" from FARMS as something of a bad allergic reaction, these days. They fight most viciously against Mormons who agree most with them, people like John Dehlin. This is in some degree inevitable, since there are precious few enemies left that are worth contending with. Old-school anti-Mormonism is pretty much dead. The new face of the mainstream Mormon faith and the evolution of American society have killed it. Nobody seriously listens to the Ed Deckers of the world any more. If they do, you don't need a doctorate to dismiss them. ("Excuse me, Westboro Baptist! My degree in theology shows that your position on homosexuality is hermeutically disputable!") In today's world, the problems that religion faces are problems that don't respect the old battlelines drawn up in the past (Mormons vs. Protestants in the ninteenth century, Protestants vs. Catholics since before that).
Mormons are more like their old enemies than they are unlike them. But old habits die hard. I remember my own experience in an introductory anthropology course at a state university. When it came time to discuss world religions, our instructor, an atheist, asked all of us to share something about our religious faith (or lack thereof). I was still a really fanatical Mormon at that point, so I bore my testimony (that Jesus was a physical being of flesh and bone who lived, died for our sins, rose from the dead, and appeared to Joseph Smith to restore his gospel in preparation for the kingdom of God that he would establish any day now, when he returned to overturn the temporal order of the earth). The person who sounded the most like me was an evangelical Christian, who spoke before I did and brought up (before he knew I was Mormon) that he rejected Mormons as Christians and would never pray with one. The rest of the class were liberal Christians (including a Catholic whom the evangelical barely managed to accept as Christian), cultural believers (who attended church or synagogue with family), agnostics, and a few avowed atheists. The evangelical and I were the only zealots. We were both radically attached to Jesus, radically convinced that he was crucial to a good human life and that we understood him correctly where others did not. The rest of the class thought we were crazy weirdos, and nice as we might try to be to one another (as people who approached life in pretty much the same way), the same fanaticism that brought us together (as Jesus freaks) also drove us apart ("Your Jesus is not mine, i.e. not the real Jesus!"). The gap between us was largely cosmetic and rhetorical (we spoke the same language with a slightly different accent), whereas the gap between us and the rest of the class was fundamental and profound (they had no clue what the heck we were talking about when we bore witness to them, and we understood their visions of faith even less than they grasped ours). When I went on a mission, later, I continued to have experiences like this one. The people who understood my language of faith best were those who already spoke it, and these people were most often fluent in Christian fanaticism because they were closely attached to their own version of it. They were more likely to hate me (as a Mormon missionary) than the agnostics and atheists (who viewed me either with shock, as something completely odd and foreign, or with a kind of detached condescension, as though I were a little child who just couldn't get past the fact that Santa is a story, not a real person). The people who attacked me verbally, as a Mormon missionary, were mostly evangelical Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses, and fanatical Catholics (I served my mission in a very Catholic country). The people who listened to me kindly were liberal believers (e.g. charismatic Christians who didn't care about historical creeds, liberal Catholics who embraced Vatican II, even some liberal Muslims) and agnostics (who were often atheists). Talking with these people left me feeling like there was a giant disconnect with the rhetoric I spoke and the reality I lived. Rhetorically, I was closest to people whom I didn't really like (because they didn't like me: all we ever did was argue unproductively about the incontrovertible, absolute truth that we each professed). Realistically, I was closer to the people who didn't feel threatened by my fanaticism (because they didn't share it, at all). I couldn't contribute anything useful to my fellow fanatics, since our mutual fanaticism constituted an insuperable barrier to any kind of understanding. The people I could have constructive conversations with were those who didn't see me as any kind of threat, the people who existed outside the realm(s) of conflict where my fanaticism was born (the old, historical dichotomies between "heretical" Christians and "orthodox" Christians). I was never going to convert them (baptize them into Mormonism), but I could learn from them (and even teach them things that they found enlightening, things that enriched their perspective on humanity in ways that they appreciated). By the time I finished my mission, I didn't bother talking much to fanatics any more. I had proven over and over how pointless it was (it just made people mad; no fanatic loved Jesus better for hearing me bawl about how I loved him differently).
When I arrived at BYU, I was still a fanatic (but a questioning one: I was trying to understand why I felt drawn toward non-fanatics, what there was in fanaticism that made its devotees obnoxious to each other). When I left, with an undergraduate degree in the humanities, I was much less of a fanatic. In grad school, I ceased to be fanatic (or turned the dial way down: my wife still thinks I am fanatical, but I see myself as much less crazy than I used to be). I realized that I didn't have access to secrets of reality that other people don't possess. The more I looked at my zealous Mormon fanaticism, the more similar it appeared to the other zealous fanaticisms I encountered in the outside world (e.g. in evangelical Christianity or the Watchtower or Opus Dei). Even worse, I realized that my apologetic bent (which I adopted as a youthful zealot) pushed me towards an even more polarized verson of Mormon fanaticism than that expressed by your average BYU-RM-bot. Apologists create this island within their tradition, an island that embraces just enough of outside influences to dismiss them (enough Judaism to dismiss the Hebrews as insufficiently Mormon, enough Christianity to dismiss the Christians as sufficiently Mormon, enough Islam to dismiss the Muslims as insufficiently Mormon, enough Buddhism to dismiss Buddhists as insufficiently Mormon, enough rational skepticism to dismiss agnostics, atheists, and skeptics as insufficiently Mormon). Inevitably, the apologetic island cuts some "orthodox" insiders off (because they aren't "hip" enough to be rational the way apologists are: they don't see any Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, or rational skepticism in their religion; they just blindly do whatever they think the prophet says instead of using the right apologetic Urim and Thummim to get at true Mormonism, which is nothing less than universal human reality). In grad school, I realized that there was no reason a person couldn't get at the deepest human truths accessible through an ideology that wasn't Mormon. There is no language that is absolutely superior to all others in every respect. (Spanish is not qualitatively better or worse than Chinese. Each one may be better or worse for individual people, but neither is universally superior to the other.) There is no religion that is absolutely superior to all others in every respect. (Mormonism is not qualitatively better or worse than Buddhism. Each one may be better or worse for individual people, but neither is universally superior to the other.) I realized that I could not be the kind of apologist who argued for the universal superiority of one particular brand of fanaticism (my own Mormonism). Unfortunately, I had invested much of my identity as a religious person on the existence of a singular, universal fanaticism (that I had to proclaim to the world). That was my personal mistake. When I learned how great a mistake it was, my religious identity collapsed entirely. I don't blame apologists for destroying my faith, though. I did that, when I based that faith on something inherently unstable (a youthful attachment to the romantic ideal of one true fanaticism to rule them all and in the Mormon Celestial Kingdom bind them).
Religion works best when it draws different people together so that they can learn from each other, embracing their differences and accepting that these need not destroy the possibility for peaceful coexistence. The strongest religions are those that don't need much careful defense from individuals who practice them. Apologetics historically works best by subverting this process, teaching people to overvalue their differences (mine are "true" where yours are "false") and employ them against one another gratuitously ("We shouldn't have to learn about your crappy faith in school: you represent a danger to civilized life and must be shut out through argument if not by recourse to the lawcourt or the battlefield!"). The strongest apologists are those who weaken their religion (by making it depend too much on the apologist's personal idiosyncrasies, such that it falls apart when someone who isn't an initiate attempts to use it: "My spiritual witness confirms that religion is rational my way, not yours, you evil heretic!"). The strong apologist needs a weak religion (so that he has something to defend: the really strong religions don't need apologists; they can stand on their own). I realized this in grad school. I realized that as an apologist, I was undermining the foundation of everything I loved most about religion. It was devastating (imagine waking up one morning and realizing that you inadvertently supported the Nazi party or some Islamic terrorist cell in the name of doing something really good: I wasn't trying to hurt anyone, but I became aware that my actions and character were very hurtful, needlessly so).
As a result of my experiences, I think apologists mean well. I don't think many of them understand their work very well, though. They want to make religion better, much of the time, because they love it. Unfortunately, their good intentions often lead them to make things worse (for themselves and others, including those inside and outside the religious traditions where they participate). Life as an apologist is always tough. People "misunderstand" you constantly, when your friendship and work (that some people embrace eagerly with joy) inexplicably cause great pain to others (who feel their faith attacked and undermined by yours, not always irrationally or incorrectly). Dan Peterson is just one of many "nice" guys, I think, caught in a web bigger than he is, doing his level best to live up to his own expectations for himself and the (conflicting) expectations others have of him. I wish him well. There but for the grace of God (who may or may not exist) go I.
Mormons are more like their old enemies than they are unlike them. But old habits die hard. I remember my own experience in an introductory anthropology course at a state university. When it came time to discuss world religions, our instructor, an atheist, asked all of us to share something about our religious faith (or lack thereof). I was still a really fanatical Mormon at that point, so I bore my testimony (that Jesus was a physical being of flesh and bone who lived, died for our sins, rose from the dead, and appeared to Joseph Smith to restore his gospel in preparation for the kingdom of God that he would establish any day now, when he returned to overturn the temporal order of the earth). The person who sounded the most like me was an evangelical Christian, who spoke before I did and brought up (before he knew I was Mormon) that he rejected Mormons as Christians and would never pray with one. The rest of the class were liberal Christians (including a Catholic whom the evangelical barely managed to accept as Christian), cultural believers (who attended church or synagogue with family), agnostics, and a few avowed atheists. The evangelical and I were the only zealots. We were both radically attached to Jesus, radically convinced that he was crucial to a good human life and that we understood him correctly where others did not. The rest of the class thought we were crazy weirdos, and nice as we might try to be to one another (as people who approached life in pretty much the same way), the same fanaticism that brought us together (as Jesus freaks) also drove us apart ("Your Jesus is not mine, i.e. not the real Jesus!"). The gap between us was largely cosmetic and rhetorical (we spoke the same language with a slightly different accent), whereas the gap between us and the rest of the class was fundamental and profound (they had no clue what the heck we were talking about when we bore witness to them, and we understood their visions of faith even less than they grasped ours). When I went on a mission, later, I continued to have experiences like this one. The people who understood my language of faith best were those who already spoke it, and these people were most often fluent in Christian fanaticism because they were closely attached to their own version of it. They were more likely to hate me (as a Mormon missionary) than the agnostics and atheists (who viewed me either with shock, as something completely odd and foreign, or with a kind of detached condescension, as though I were a little child who just couldn't get past the fact that Santa is a story, not a real person). The people who attacked me verbally, as a Mormon missionary, were mostly evangelical Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses, and fanatical Catholics (I served my mission in a very Catholic country). The people who listened to me kindly were liberal believers (e.g. charismatic Christians who didn't care about historical creeds, liberal Catholics who embraced Vatican II, even some liberal Muslims) and agnostics (who were often atheists). Talking with these people left me feeling like there was a giant disconnect with the rhetoric I spoke and the reality I lived. Rhetorically, I was closest to people whom I didn't really like (because they didn't like me: all we ever did was argue unproductively about the incontrovertible, absolute truth that we each professed). Realistically, I was closer to the people who didn't feel threatened by my fanaticism (because they didn't share it, at all). I couldn't contribute anything useful to my fellow fanatics, since our mutual fanaticism constituted an insuperable barrier to any kind of understanding. The people I could have constructive conversations with were those who didn't see me as any kind of threat, the people who existed outside the realm(s) of conflict where my fanaticism was born (the old, historical dichotomies between "heretical" Christians and "orthodox" Christians). I was never going to convert them (baptize them into Mormonism), but I could learn from them (and even teach them things that they found enlightening, things that enriched their perspective on humanity in ways that they appreciated). By the time I finished my mission, I didn't bother talking much to fanatics any more. I had proven over and over how pointless it was (it just made people mad; no fanatic loved Jesus better for hearing me bawl about how I loved him differently).
When I arrived at BYU, I was still a fanatic (but a questioning one: I was trying to understand why I felt drawn toward non-fanatics, what there was in fanaticism that made its devotees obnoxious to each other). When I left, with an undergraduate degree in the humanities, I was much less of a fanatic. In grad school, I ceased to be fanatic (or turned the dial way down: my wife still thinks I am fanatical, but I see myself as much less crazy than I used to be). I realized that I didn't have access to secrets of reality that other people don't possess. The more I looked at my zealous Mormon fanaticism, the more similar it appeared to the other zealous fanaticisms I encountered in the outside world (e.g. in evangelical Christianity or the Watchtower or Opus Dei). Even worse, I realized that my apologetic bent (which I adopted as a youthful zealot) pushed me towards an even more polarized verson of Mormon fanaticism than that expressed by your average BYU-RM-bot. Apologists create this island within their tradition, an island that embraces just enough of outside influences to dismiss them (enough Judaism to dismiss the Hebrews as insufficiently Mormon, enough Christianity to dismiss the Christians as sufficiently Mormon, enough Islam to dismiss the Muslims as insufficiently Mormon, enough Buddhism to dismiss Buddhists as insufficiently Mormon, enough rational skepticism to dismiss agnostics, atheists, and skeptics as insufficiently Mormon). Inevitably, the apologetic island cuts some "orthodox" insiders off (because they aren't "hip" enough to be rational the way apologists are: they don't see any Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, or rational skepticism in their religion; they just blindly do whatever they think the prophet says instead of using the right apologetic Urim and Thummim to get at true Mormonism, which is nothing less than universal human reality). In grad school, I realized that there was no reason a person couldn't get at the deepest human truths accessible through an ideology that wasn't Mormon. There is no language that is absolutely superior to all others in every respect. (Spanish is not qualitatively better or worse than Chinese. Each one may be better or worse for individual people, but neither is universally superior to the other.) There is no religion that is absolutely superior to all others in every respect. (Mormonism is not qualitatively better or worse than Buddhism. Each one may be better or worse for individual people, but neither is universally superior to the other.) I realized that I could not be the kind of apologist who argued for the universal superiority of one particular brand of fanaticism (my own Mormonism). Unfortunately, I had invested much of my identity as a religious person on the existence of a singular, universal fanaticism (that I had to proclaim to the world). That was my personal mistake. When I learned how great a mistake it was, my religious identity collapsed entirely. I don't blame apologists for destroying my faith, though. I did that, when I based that faith on something inherently unstable (a youthful attachment to the romantic ideal of one true fanaticism to rule them all and in the Mormon Celestial Kingdom bind them).
Religion works best when it draws different people together so that they can learn from each other, embracing their differences and accepting that these need not destroy the possibility for peaceful coexistence. The strongest religions are those that don't need much careful defense from individuals who practice them. Apologetics historically works best by subverting this process, teaching people to overvalue their differences (mine are "true" where yours are "false") and employ them against one another gratuitously ("We shouldn't have to learn about your crappy faith in school: you represent a danger to civilized life and must be shut out through argument if not by recourse to the lawcourt or the battlefield!"). The strongest apologists are those who weaken their religion (by making it depend too much on the apologist's personal idiosyncrasies, such that it falls apart when someone who isn't an initiate attempts to use it: "My spiritual witness confirms that religion is rational my way, not yours, you evil heretic!"). The strong apologist needs a weak religion (so that he has something to defend: the really strong religions don't need apologists; they can stand on their own). I realized this in grad school. I realized that as an apologist, I was undermining the foundation of everything I loved most about religion. It was devastating (imagine waking up one morning and realizing that you inadvertently supported the Nazi party or some Islamic terrorist cell in the name of doing something really good: I wasn't trying to hurt anyone, but I became aware that my actions and character were very hurtful, needlessly so).
As a result of my experiences, I think apologists mean well. I don't think many of them understand their work very well, though. They want to make religion better, much of the time, because they love it. Unfortunately, their good intentions often lead them to make things worse (for themselves and others, including those inside and outside the religious traditions where they participate). Life as an apologist is always tough. People "misunderstand" you constantly, when your friendship and work (that some people embrace eagerly with joy) inexplicably cause great pain to others (who feel their faith attacked and undermined by yours, not always irrationally or incorrectly). Dan Peterson is just one of many "nice" guys, I think, caught in a web bigger than he is, doing his level best to live up to his own expectations for himself and the (conflicting) expectations others have of him. I wish him well. There but for the grace of God (who may or may not exist) go I.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Stranger, please don't shoot me
Or hate me for a fraud:
I am just the messenger
Of your inscrutable God.
Or hate me for a fraud:
I am just the messenger
Of your inscrutable God.
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Re: Anonymous Source Confirms Hit Piece
Kishkumen wrote:
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that a classic-FARMS apologist emailed my work account and asked me to consider how I would feel if he contacted my dean or department chairman about the fact that I had spent a good deal of time on MDB attacking the LDS Church. Then, when I replied that I didn't appreciate his threats, he were to point out that he had stipulated at the outset that he was not threatening me, only asking me to consider how it would feel.
Did Daniel C. Peterson actually do this to you, Kish?
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
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Re: Anonymous Source Confirms Hit Piece
consiglieri wrote:Kishkumen wrote:
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that a classic-FARMS apologist emailed my work account and asked me to consider how I would feel if he contacted my dean or department chairman about the fact that I had spent a good deal of time on MDB attacking the LDS Church. Then, when I replied that I didn't appreciate his threats, he were to point out that he had stipulated at the outset that he was not threatening me, only asking me to consider how it would feel.
Did Daniel C. Peterson actually do this to you, Kish?
My recollection is that it was someone else, but one of the classic FARMS guys.
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Re: Anonymous Source Confirms Hit Piece
Sethbag wrote:The problem with arguing over that is that the language contains a lot of linguistic imprecision, on purpose. Not to mention the term is metaphorical in the first place. It's not like you read this piece and a fist reaches out of the paper (or your screen) and punches you in the face.
Is Midgely a dickhead? I suppose you could argue that no, Midgely is not in fact the giant glans of a penis. So the answer is, inarguably, no. Misses the point, but constitutes a valid (if trivial) linguistic argument.
My diagnosis is that he, and a few others in question, are suffering from a acute medical anomaly known as " a reverse intracranial sphincter squeeze"...23 years ago when I was struggling with the history of the church and asked questions to him a DCP at FARMS, he wrote back and asked me if it was "because of the beer", I don't swear much, but he is what you say he may not be.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
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Re: Anonymous Source Confirms Hit Piece
Thanks Cylon for clearing up that point of confusion.
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Fascinating. I think including a name is problematic, but what about the primary-song parody that mocks John's message as childish and his listeners as children, uncritically accepting whatever JD tells them? Well, what WW appears to be saying is that the article probably isn't as bad as people think based on the title, even though many critics will still consider it a hit piece. In other words, if all we had was the title, we might overestimate its hit piece rating as a "9" rather than the "6" or a "7", and the title may have been deflated upon publication.
What would JD have been willing to let go? What would the GA have been willing to dismiss? I guess we can't know the answer, but JD's case with a GA does seem to have bolstered credibility with a title like that. The apologists tend to think their polemical antics are everywhere justified on moral grounds as dictated by Neal A. Maxwell. But do they ever take into account what's pragmatic rather than what they feel technically covers them under moral law? What if they would have went in the opposite direction and called the paper "Heartfelt Answers for John Dehlin" and downplayed the paper as maybe a "3" or a "4"? Would JD have been able to convince the GA as easily?
It seems to me that the apologist have contributed greatly to their own problems with their need for antics and they seem to recognize this if there really was a possibility that they would have changed the title on their own. One might say, if Neal A. Maxwell demanded overt apologetics, then the apologists will be held accountable for not taking that mission seriously enough and allowing cheap shots to exaggerate the apparent hostility in there core work, which greatly increases the unpredictibility of how their message will be taken.
How many times have we heard, "Oh come on now, that's exaggerating, I simply added a little color in that statement, nothing compared to what LDSCrit35 said on that blog, it isn't fair..."
WW is probably right about FAIR. If you take the sum total of articles written and persons involved, it's probably an OK organization in terms of relations with struggling members. The problem is, its most vocal participants are the most controversial and personally unstable. That's a recipe for long-term problems.
It may also be true that vocal critics are often times unstable, but it doesn't matter, critics will be replaced and ultimately represent themselves. The apologists represent the Church. The Church understands this, as do all large corporations. It would be suicide for any company PR department to allow overt polemics in its defense on the grounds that "Hey, what representative X of BigOil1 said was just a tweak, we should be allowed a little fun at our critic's expense, look at what BigOilSux67 said in his latest blog post, full of obsenities and serious accusations of this company and me personally.."
It's possible that overt apologetics is in theory compatible with the Church's attempt to remake its image, but it's never going to work as polemics in today's world. That's the practical bottom line.
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DBLA wrote:Also, my understanding is that John Dehlin knew the title (along with a friend who warned him it was a hit piece) and that was one of the reasons he appealed to the GAs to quash the whole thing.
WW wrote:1) The original title was "Dubious 'Mormon' Stories that John Dehlin Tells to Me". I don't care for the title, simply because I don't like titles that include a person's name in them. I don't know if it was going to be changed for publication or not.
Fascinating. I think including a name is problematic, but what about the primary-song parody that mocks John's message as childish and his listeners as children, uncritically accepting whatever JD tells them? Well, what WW appears to be saying is that the article probably isn't as bad as people think based on the title, even though many critics will still consider it a hit piece. In other words, if all we had was the title, we might overestimate its hit piece rating as a "9" rather than the "6" or a "7", and the title may have been deflated upon publication.
What would JD have been willing to let go? What would the GA have been willing to dismiss? I guess we can't know the answer, but JD's case with a GA does seem to have bolstered credibility with a title like that. The apologists tend to think their polemical antics are everywhere justified on moral grounds as dictated by Neal A. Maxwell. But do they ever take into account what's pragmatic rather than what they feel technically covers them under moral law? What if they would have went in the opposite direction and called the paper "Heartfelt Answers for John Dehlin" and downplayed the paper as maybe a "3" or a "4"? Would JD have been able to convince the GA as easily?
It seems to me that the apologist have contributed greatly to their own problems with their need for antics and they seem to recognize this if there really was a possibility that they would have changed the title on their own. One might say, if Neal A. Maxwell demanded overt apologetics, then the apologists will be held accountable for not taking that mission seriously enough and allowing cheap shots to exaggerate the apparent hostility in there core work, which greatly increases the unpredictibility of how their message will be taken.
How many times have we heard, "Oh come on now, that's exaggerating, I simply added a little color in that statement, nothing compared to what LDSCrit35 said on that blog, it isn't fair..."
WW is probably right about FAIR. If you take the sum total of articles written and persons involved, it's probably an OK organization in terms of relations with struggling members. The problem is, its most vocal participants are the most controversial and personally unstable. That's a recipe for long-term problems.
It may also be true that vocal critics are often times unstable, but it doesn't matter, critics will be replaced and ultimately represent themselves. The apologists represent the Church. The Church understands this, as do all large corporations. It would be suicide for any company PR department to allow overt polemics in its defense on the grounds that "Hey, what representative X of BigOil1 said was just a tweak, we should be allowed a little fun at our critic's expense, look at what BigOilSux67 said in his latest blog post, full of obsenities and serious accusations of this company and me personally.."
It's possible that overt apologetics is in theory compatible with the Church's attempt to remake its image, but it's never going to work as polemics in today's world. That's the practical bottom line.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.
LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
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Re: Anonymous Source Confirms Hit Piece
consiglieri wrote:Did Daniel C. Peterson actually do this to you, Kish?
Heavens no. Daniel Peterson is too decent to do such a thing, and I am utterly sincere when I say that. I can't imagine him behaving so poorly.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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Re: Anonymous Source Confirms Hit Piece
MsJack wrote:Just one more thought, and then I'll drop it. Always assuming the absolute worst about critics' motives is part of what makes bad apologists bad. Do you really want to be like that?
In any case, a correction is a correction and I'm glad you pointed this out.
I don't assume the worst in Wiki. In general, I find him to be very fair. I do believe that in this instance he is honestly in error and his biases are driving his reading. More to the point, his diplomacy in favor of classic-FARMS is driving his description. Unfortunately, everything else indicates it was a hit piece. Wiki's general probity is not enough to convince me otherwise.
Nevertheless, I do find him to be a real stand-up guy among the apologists.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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Re: Anonymous Source Confirms Hit Piece
Gadianton wrote:It's possible that overt apologetics is in theory compatible with the Church's attempt to remake its image, but it's never going to work as polemics in today's world. That's the practical bottom line.
Indeed it is, Dean Robbers. Very well written.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
Re: Anonymous Source Confirms Hit Piece
Kishkumen wrote:
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that a classic-FARMS apologist emailed my work account and asked me to consider how I would feel if he contacted my dean or department chairman about the fact that I had spent a good deal of time on MDB attacking the LDS Church. Then, when I replied that I didn't appreciate his threats, he were to point out that he had stipulated at the outset that he was not threatening me, only asking me to consider how it would feel.
Consig wrote:Did Daniel C. Peterson actually do this to you, Kish?
dbleagent wrote:My recollection is that it was someone else, but one of the classic FARMS guys.
Woah...this is the first I have heard of this. Kish, could you elaborate on this one?
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Re: Anonymous Source Confirms Hit Piece
wayfarer wrote:One area of concern, having seen some of these guys in action, is that when they select quotes from the podcasts, particularly the John Larsen podcast, they fail to put the quote in context. If I say, for example, that there is "no reason" to believe in a literal Christ as son of God, that doesn't mean I don't believe it, but rather, that such a claim cannot be proven through reason. If the interviewee later states that he chooses to believe anyway, and the reviewer omits that material comment, then the reviewer has altered the meaning of the interviewee. Did the reviewer lie? No -- he quoted the interviewee accurately, but not completely.
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But as dblagent noted, there are some in the Mormon apologist community who use disingenuous picking from words to take offense and then discredit the person. All of the ones mentioned have done this. Dan, particularly, makes claims he doesn't read my posts, then quotes my words verbatim -- something that only was stated in my post, then makes a caricature of it -- a strawman -- and distorts the meaning of the original post. This is disingenuous and wrong. All of them have an objective: when they consider an individual to be a threat to the church, then they will do all they can to discredit, label, and dismiss the individual. They fail to read the argument, or even address it in the least -- it's always about the person, not the argument.
These observations match the experience of so many people, and there is really nothing that I have ever heard by way of effective justification of this M.O. Twisting the words of others to make them look bad is unacceptable in an organization that claims to stand for Christian values and beliefs. Wayfarer is an extremely principled, mentally sharp, well-educated person. His experience matches well that of countless others. I don't think there is any denying his depiction of classic-FARMS antics.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist