David Bokovoy Comments On Greg Smith's Dehlin Article

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_Fence Sitter
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David Bokovoy Comments On Greg Smith's Dehlin Article

Post by _Fence Sitter »

I know there are numerous threads already on this subject but I did not want this post to get lost in all those comments.

For those without access to the other MDD, here is what David Bokovoy had to say over at MDD about the Greg Smith piece on Dehlin.

In light of the very public nature of these issues, I’m going to break my self-imposed exile from public message boards to share just a couple of thoughts. Having read the review, I don’t share the opinion that it is a “hit” piece, nor do I believe that Greg Smith is an angry apologist. Greg is clearly a sincere individual who cares deeply about setting the record straight on Mormon Stories (at least as he understands the movement). That having been said, for what it’s worth, here are my two issues with the piece:

1. Any critique should seek for balance. I’m grateful that Greg pointed out all of what he perceives as problematic assessments in Dehlin’s podcasts concerning his approach to Mormon history, doctrine, and theology. Greg has every right to do so, and since Dehlin’s podcasts are in the public domain, they should be critiqued. However, I did not feel that the critique Greg offered was fair and well-balanced.

Personally, I don't think I've ever listened to any of the podcasts myself, but I know several people that truly have been blessed spiritually by Dehlin’s efforts and that through his interviews with people like Phillip Barlow, Terryl Givens, Richard Bushman, and Daniel Peterson have, after years of inactivity, gone back to Church. This needs to be acknowledged to a greater extent than it was in a fair, accurate review.

As President Hinckley taught several years ago, if a cartoon chooses to over-exaggerate one aspect of a person’s physical appearance, that characterization distorts, and therefore misses the beauty of the person so characterized. So while I appreciate Greg’s efforts to point out John's missteps, I believe that a fair review (like a fair biography of Joseph Smith, for example) that avoids false characterization would have attempted to present a fuller picture.

2. I really dislike placing people into categories or lists, especially when it comes to their spiritual journey. Those of us who question (and make no mistake about it, questioning is an important part of our spiritual growth) move back and forth between various positions and therefore “categories." This is the problem, in my opinion, with making things personal, and trying to nail down an individual, whether it's Daniel Peterson or John Dehlin into a certain position such as “apostate/leavetaker,” or even “apologist." Making it personal and placing individuals into socio-religious categories like those identified in the review drives a wedge between people and frustrates the divine goal of unity in the Gospel.

Anyway, for what it's worth, that’s my critique of the critique. Despite my issues with the piece, I’m grateful for both Greg’s and John’s efforts and would hope that we can all learn from this experience and that those involved can continue moving forward in their respective efforts to contribute to the Mormon story.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Kishkumen
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Re: David Bokovoy Comments On Greg Smith's Dehlin Article

Post by _Kishkumen »

That is without a doubt the best response that I have seen. Well done, David Bokovoy. You are a real Mensch.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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Re: David Bokovoy Comments On Greg Smith's Dehlin Article

Post by _Fence Sitter »

I too admire David, but I can't help wondering why he says this is not a hit piece and at the same time believes it is an unbalanced article? Shouldn't we then conclude that David thinks Greg is not a capable writer and unknowingly produced an article that was one sided?
Last edited by Guest on Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Bazooka
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Re: David Bokovoy Comments On Greg Smith's Dehlin Article

Post by _Bazooka »

He seems to say Smith was right to write it but wrote it wrong.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_Kishkumen
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Re: David Bokovoy Comments On Greg Smith's Dehlin Article

Post by _Kishkumen »

I think he is trying to escape the cycle of attacks. If he attacks Greg's piece, it will only serve to perpetuate the problem. Best to find a different way out.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Sammy Jankins
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Re: David Bokovoy Comments On Greg Smith's Dehlin Article

Post by _Sammy Jankins »

David Bokovoy wrote:I’m grateful for both Greg’s and John’s efforts and would hope that we can all learn from this experience and that those involved can continue moving forward in their respective efforts to contribute to the Mormon story.


What is there to be learned? That if you disagree with or criticize the church that some members of the church will try to destroy your credibility?
I already knew that. I learned it the moment I started to question.
_Ludd
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Re: David Bokovoy Comments On Greg Smith's Dehlin Article

Post by _Ludd »

Doesn't this Bokovoy guy understand that it is simply not permissible to take a position in the middle on this question?

But seriously, kudos to Bokovoy for finding a way to be "fair and balanced" in the middle of this war of annihilation.
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Re: David Bokovoy Comments On Greg Smith's Dehlin Article

Post by _Yahoo Bot »

I don't think Bokovoy is qualified to weigh in without knowing much about Dehlin or ever having listened to one of the abominably tedious podcasts.

Somebody here made the allusion to Larry King's practice of not reading the subject interview's work. So true with Dehlin.

I would recommend one podcast of Dehlin's, and that is the one of Brant Gardner. Brant takes a position about the Book of Mormon translation which is really directly contrary to the "chiasmus crowd" of amazing coincidences. I had heard that FARMS had a pending critique of Brant's 2-volume practically-self-published book on the subject, but I have not seen it.

Brant basically said that the Book of Mormon text relies upon contemporary influence and that no case can be made for a Hebrew influence (except to the extent it comes from the Bible.) This is really diametrically opposite to significant FARMS publications over the years. I happen to be persuaded by Brant's book, except I think he does a poor job on chiasmus itself, and I think chiasmus cuts against his theme.

But, back to the point. Dehlin should have really jumped on this conflict between FARMS and Brant. He didn't. Instead, not having read Brant's book, Dehlin just wanted to send up his trial balloons of deflated personal testimony on totally unrelated topics; a real waste of time.
_Enuma Elish
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Re: David Bokovoy Comments On Greg Smith's Dehlin Article

Post by _Enuma Elish »

Thanks, friends, for the kind thoughts and critique. I really don't have anything else to share on this issue. Like I said, I don't know that I have personally ever listened to any of John's podcasts. I just know that what he does has worked for some and for that I appreciate his efforts.

I'm assuming it's a reference to this board, but someone suggested that a comment was made that I officially work with the Maxwell Institute. Just to clarify, I have no connections whatsoever with BYU or the Maxwell Institute and no opinions on what they should or should not publish.

I'm actually under contract to continue teaching Bible and Mormon Studies next year at the University of Utah (a place I have grown to love and where I feel quite comfortable; especially in terms of Languages and Literature and Religious Studies).

In a not so shameless plug, on Tuesdays and Thursday nights this Fall beginning at 7:00 PM, I will be teaching their first-ever "Book of Mormon as Literature" course using Grant Hardy's Reader's Edition of the Book of Mormon as the primary text.

In addition to taking the various individual voices in the text seriously (a.k.a. Terryl Givens and Grant Hardy), and looking at the ways in which the Book of Mormon imitates biblical literary patterns and makes use of texts such as Isaiah, this class will of course also explore the ways in which the Book of Mormon has been analyzed as 19th century religious literature by commentators such as David Wright, Dan Vogel, Margaret Toscano, Brent Metcalfe, and Mark Thomas, all of whom I hold in very high regard.

I'm very humbled and excited by the fact that as far as I'm aware, this is the first time ever that an entire academic course will be devoted to this issue outside of a devotional context and of course independent of the book's truth claims.

I would like to officially invite any of you on this board who are interested to join us through Continuing Education.


Best,

--DB
"We know when we understand: Almighty god is a living man"--Bob Marley
_Kishkumen
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Re: David Bokovoy Comments On Greg Smith's Dehlin Article

Post by _Kishkumen »

Enuma Elish wrote:Thanks, friends, for the kind thoughts and critique. I really don't have anything else to share on this issue. Like I said, I don't know that I have personally ever listened to any of John's podcasts. I just know that what he does has worked for some and for that I appreciate his efforts.

I'm assuming it's a reference to this board, but someone suggested that a comment was made that I officially work with the Maxwell Institute. Just to clarify, I have no connections whatsoever with BYU or the Maxwell Institute and no opinions on what they should or should not publish.

I'm actually under contract to continue teaching Bible and Mormon Studies next year at the University of Utah (a place I have grown to love and where I feel quite comfortable; especially in terms of Languages and Literature and Religious Studies).

In a not so shameless plug, on Tuesdays and Thursday nights this Fall beginning at 7:00 PM, I will be teaching their first-ever "Book of Mormon as Literature" course using Grant Hardy's Reader's Edition of the Book of Mormon as the primary text.

In addition to taking the various individual voices in the text seriously (a.k.a. Terryl Givens and Grant Hardy), and looking at the ways in which the Book of Mormon imitates biblical literary patterns and makes use of texts such as Isaiah, this class will of course also explore the ways in which the Book of Mormon has been analyzed as 19th century religious literature by commentators such as David Wright, Dan Vogel, Margaret Toscano, Brent Metcalfe, and Mark Thomas, all of whom I hold in very high regard.

I'm very humbled and excited by the fact that as far as I'm aware, this is the first time ever that an entire academic course will be devoted to this issue outside of a devotional context and of course independent of the book's truth claims.

I would like to officially invite any of you on this board who are interested to join us through Continuing Education.


Best,

--DB


Congratulations on the opportunity to teach this exciting new course! I wish you the best and I hope you will share your experience doing this in a place where we can learn about it.

K
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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