Publics Schools

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_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
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Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: Publics Schools

Post by _Kevin Graham »

http://www.schoolfunding.information/issues/myths.pdf

Myth #3: Private and Charter Schools are Educating Kids Better

Private and charter schools do, on average, no better a job of educating children than public schools, and they sometimes do a worse job. NAEP scores of private school students are no better than those of public school students, after correcting for socio-economic background. The “benefits” of private schools may be nothing more than the benefits of attending schools with students from predominantly affluent backgrounds.

Stories of high-performing charter schools are frequently provided without context. At some charter schools, such as the KIPP academies, there is a high rate of student attrition; the students who have the most difficulty frequently leave (and return to their regular public schools). In addition, in KIPP schools and similar schools, students have 60 percent more learning time, through a longer school day, weekend classes, and summer school. Comparing these schools to regular public schools is comparing apples to oranges. Bringing this model to scale would require a major influx of funds.



http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archive ... tion=false

Today, charter schools are promoted not as ways to collaborate with public schools but as competitors that will force them to get better or go out of business. In fact, they have become the force for privatization that Shanker feared. Because of the high-stakes testing regime created by President George W. Bush’s No Child Left Behind (NCLB) legislation, charter schools compete to get higher test scores than regular public schools and thus have an incentive to avoid students who might pull down their scores. Under NCLB, low-performing schools may be closed, while high-performing ones may get bonuses. Some charter schools “counsel out” or expel students just before state testing day. Some have high attrition rates, especially among lower-performing students.

Perhaps the greatest distortion in this film is its misrepresentation of data about student academic performance. The film claims that 70 percent of eighth-grade students cannot read at grade level. This is flatly wrong. Guggenheim here relies on numbers drawn from the federally sponsored National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP). I served as a member of the governing board for the national tests for seven years, and I know how misleading Guggenheim’s figures are. NAEP doesn’t measure performance in terms of grade-level achievement. The highest level of performance, “advanced,” is equivalent to an A+, representing the highest possible academic performance. The next level, “proficient,” is equivalent to an A or a very strong B. The next level is “basic,” which probably translates into a C grade. The film assumes that any student below proficient is “below grade level.” But it would be far more fitting to worry about students who are “below basic,” who are 25 percent of the national sample, not 70 percent.

Guggenheim didn’t bother to take a close look at the heroes of his documentary. Geoffrey Canada is justly celebrated for the creation of the Harlem Children’s Zone, which not only runs two charter schools but surrounds children and their families with a broad array of social and medical services. Canada has a board of wealthy philanthropists and a very successful fund-raising apparatus. With assets of more than $200 million, his organization has no shortage of funds. Canada himself is currently paid $400,000 annually. For Guggenheim to praise Canada while also claiming that public schools don’t need any more money is bizarre. Canada’s charter schools get better results than nearby public schools serving impoverished students. If all inner-city schools had the same resources as his, they might get the same good results.

But contrary to the myth that Guggenheim propounds about “amazing results,” even Geoffrey Canada’s schools have many students who are not proficient. On the 2010 state tests, 60 percent of the fourth-grade students in one of his charter schools were not proficient in reading, nor were 50 percent in the other. It should be noted—and Guggenheim didn’t note it—that Canada kicked out his entire first class of middle school students when they didn’t get good enough test scores to satisfy his board of trustees. This sad event was documented by Paul Tough in his laudatory account of Canada’s Harlem Children’s Zone, Whatever It Takes (2009). Contrary to Guggenheim’s mythology, even the best-funded charters, with the finest services, can’t completely negate the effects of poverty.
_EAllusion
_Emeritus
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Re: Publics Schools

Post by _EAllusion »

Having seen and taken prototype standardized testing, the standards are pretty lax. If you are below proficient, you are doing badly. If that's a A-B at a given grade level, that's a heck of a easy A-B to get. We're not asking a lot of our students.
_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
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Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: Publics Schools

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Droopy wrote:
Kevin Graham wrote:You have the data Droopy, the test scores? let's see them. Hurry, run to Heritage, where your thinking is already done for you.



Do you own homework, pal. This problem is at least THIRTY YEARS OLD and is among the most studied, analyzed, and well documented major social problems of our age. You missed it? Tough. You get to look like what you are: a leftist intellectual hack raised on a steady diet of prepackaged, tightly controlled, monochromatic mainstream media gruel that you like because it flatters your preexisting prejudices and biases and its easy to digest. You don't even have to chew. Just swallow it whole. That's the way you drink Kool-Aid: hold your breath and guzzle.


I haven't missed anything dumbass, I've lived it. I've been neck deep in it. I've taught at the high school level in two countries, and with all your talk about expertise in private schools, I actually owned one of those too. So stop pretending to have a clue when all you've done thus far is assert the usual Cato/Heritage dogma while alluding to these mysterious "studies" that supposedly refute the facts as I laid them out. They don't, even if they exist. There isn't a single empirical study anywhere that has substantiated your claim. The problem with education has absolutely nothing to do with the private/public qualifier. Nothing. Most of the best doctors and scientists on this planet attended public schools. I attended both. In Alabama I attended Glenwood High School in Phenix City, only because my parents didn't want us to attend school with black children. They were actually prohibited from enrolling there. There were a whopping 25 students in my entire sophomore class, and then we moved to Atlanta, where we attended the largest school in the state (1,083 in my graduating class). The difference in education?None. But our test scores initially dropped because we were depressed; it was such a dramatic change of environment.

I've experienced everything you're talking about, both as a student and teacher. You've experienced nothing it seems. All you know is what you read from your idiotic "think tanks" who are "in the tank" for special interests groups who are hoping to make big bucks in the private education industry.

All you have to do is look at the way private education has become such a scam for undergrads.
_Tarski
_Emeritus
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Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:57 pm

Re: Publics Schools

Post by _Tarski »

Droopy wrote:
Absolutely, utterly, pathetically, insultingly worthless anecdote.

Anecdote?? We do empirical studies and active intervention analysed by professionals in data analysis, education, psychology and experts in content knowledge.

By comparison your assinine list includes things like

"
(reason 19) "Barack Hussein Obama, mm, mm, mm."
"
Is that supposed to be more valuable than the experience of educators like myself??
You are patheitc.

We have the numbers.

We???
No Droopy, we (scientists and educators) have numbers.
We have the test scores.

Yes, I/we analyse them.
We have the studies.
Yes, we do the studies and analyse them in light of good understanding of statistics, psychology, and in light of what our experience in the field (where you are not) with students and having had experience with funding issues etc.

We have the surveys.

Again, that would be we.

By state, by city, and according to international comparisons, thirty some years of them, and they all point in exactly the same direction.

Riiight. Everything for you and your hack buddies points in one direction: To rightist, quasi-racist political preconcieved conclusions. Every bit of data is interpreted by force to fit with the simple minded conservative worship of free market and profit.

The almost complete degeneration of American public schooling is long standing, common knowledge. There is no question, no argument, and no disagreement here among anyone with the slightest education or lingering remains of normal adult intelligence.

What you fail to understand are the significances, causes, the implications and the myriad subtle realities indiscernible to people like you who have no experience with teaching or with students. The free market is powerless to fix what is broken here and you can't say otherwise until you hold up a functioning example of a scaled up privatized system, a charter school system, that has overcomes the effects of poverty, prejudice and other social/cultural forces that challenge a melting pot society like our own.

You nuts on the far right would love for education to be about money so that typically impoverished ethnic groups can be separated out and left behind where they belong since you think they are inferior. Let them compete with the moneyed, the priveledged and affluent without help from government programs and just let them lose the competition like they were meant to--right?

BY the way, K12 teachers are underpayed, treated like dogs by parents, students and administrators and yet they work harder every day than you have in your life. The preparation and grading alone is a 14 hour a day job. Now add to that administative hoop jumping, the meeting with math couches, the reporting, paper work, self video taping etc. and you have madness in terms of work.
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_Gadianton
_Emeritus
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Re: Publics Schools

Post by _Gadianton »

I agree with all of Tarski's points. Private schools as I've seen them are way overpriced, what, 25k a year for a kid? No wonder the parents demand they get A's! As EA points out, there is no cost justification when factoring in acheivement (it's kind of obvious, most intelligence is native and no amount of money is going to make a kid significantly smarter than otherwise, good teachers can inspire kids to use what they have for far less money). I think the motives are a) status symbol b) separating their kids from the "others" c) better education.

Also note that all countries ranked as economically free by Heritage offer free public education, so public education can't in principle be as bad as Droopy thinks.

It's possible that the right kind of privatization could help education, I don't know, but I don't think the answers are obvious by any means. I don't think the education my kid is getting from a public school is so awful that it's an issue, and the school ranking is just average. I'm thinking she'll test as high as the upper students at the Montessori schools, for the price of about four college educations less than them by graduation. Oh but wait, standardized testing was a problem for Droopy's list, we wouldn't a poor kid shown to be as smart as a rich kid paying high tuition.

I'm far more concerned about the non-education related aspects of growing up. What I mean by that is, I'm not sure more rigorous education beyond a certain point for most kids is specifically what they need to be more successful in life.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

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