One Hundred Reasons to Abandon Public Education Now

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_EAllusion
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Re: One Hundred Reasons to Abandon Public Education Now

Post by _EAllusion »

Kevin Graham wrote:Friedman is not practical and too extreme.


That's not an argument. It's a label.

I still haven't seen a viable model for the complete privatization of education that would accommodate the millions of impoverished children who would be left out in the cold.


Millions of impoverished children already are left out in the cold by the public school system if you haven't noticed. It's more complicated than that, and his arguments are related to sorting out this comparison. That's why I said it deserves a more serious response.
_Kevin Graham
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Re: One Hundred Reasons to Abandon Public Education Now

Post by _Kevin Graham »

That's not an argument. It's a label.


So? You aven't given me an argument to respond to.

Millions of impoverished children already are left out in the cold by the public school system if you haven't noticed.


What a lame "throw the baby out with the bath water" approach. So some kids fall through the cracks, meaning the system isn't working for 100%, therefore we should just throw our hands up, say “F” them all, and move towards privatization, because... well, just because.

And in what sense are these kids "left out in the cold"? If you're talking about the way in which they pass some of them through the system just to get them out of there, then please explain to me how privatizing education could possibly change any of that. The main difference is that they'd be expelled immediately as opposed to being allowed to just coast through the system. At least impoverished children have a chance as it is now, whereas with privatization, they'd have no chance at all. It all begins at home. Kids growing up with books in a two parent household are likely to read at home and be better prepared at school. Kids growing up in educated households will tend to appreciate the value of being educated, and act accordingly. Kids growing up in single-parent households in the inner city areas aren't likely to have those advantages and are more likely to turn to a completely different lifestyle at a very young age (i.e. crime), but this isn't the fault of a "public" school system.

Teachers are not prepared to do the job of millions of fathers who have abandoned their kids, or the millions of mothers who have turned to crime, prostitution, drugs, etc. So please explain to me how teachers working at a private institution are somehow going to be able to do take on these extra responsibilities. Friedman doesn't even begin to scrape the surface of that key issue, though he does seem to recognize, contrary to what Droopy says, that income brackets play a role in determining the quality of a public school.

It's more complicated than that, and his arguments are related to sorting out this comparison. That's why I said it deserves a more serious response.


From what I read of Friedman at the Cato site, his proposal about transitioning to privatization begins with vouchers. Before even beginning to explain how this would work or be better for the kids, he derails from his own train of thought by whining about unions.
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Re: One Hundred Reasons to Abandon Public Education Now

Post by _EAllusion »

Kevin Graham wrote:
So? You haven't given me an argument to respond to.


I linked an extensive series of arguments by David Friedman. After I referred to that, you just called him impractical and extreme.
What a lame "throw the baby out with the bath water" approach. So some kids fall through the cracks, meaning the system isn't working for 100%, therefore we should just throw our hands up, say f*** them all, and move towards privatization, because... well, just because.


You argued that we can't drop public education because this will mean that millions of impoverished children will be left out in the cold. The fact that our public education already has this consequence should be taken into any sensible cost/benefit comparison between public and private systems. If you are asserting that all children in poverty would not get an education in a private system, this is simply false.
And in what sense are these kids "left out in the cold"?


They fail to be educated. That's your concern with the fate of impoverished children, right? You are worried that x% of poor parents won't fund their education, right? If you assert, as you do, that failed students are getting a raw deal at home and that's why they fail, that still is the case when kids have parents who won't pay for schooling. I am saying it isn't immediately obvious that graduation rates would be lower than they are in a private system. The comparison is between the public system as it exists in reality, which is deeply flawed, and the private system's flaws.

From what I read of Friedman at the Cato site, his proposal about transitioning to privatization begins with vouchers. Before even beginning to explain how this would work or be better for the kids, he derails from his own train of thought by whining about unions.


You are confusing Milton Friedman with his son David Friedman. And since that is the case, you are wrong in believing that Milton Friedman thinks the government should stay out of everything. David is an anarcho-capitalist, so I thought that was your cheeky way of describing his views. Regardless of what you think about it, Milton's voucher system subsidizes education for the poor, by the way.
_ajax18
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Re: One Hundred Reasons to Abandon Public Education Now

Post by _ajax18 »

(notice that it nowhere says public education ends for sixth graders!


The people still said they had to pay a matriculation fee after 6th grade. Perhaps it's state sponsored but that doesn't mean the state pays for everything. I heard from more than a few 8th grade age kids, "My parents can't afford my matriculation, so I'm not going to school anymore."

Just out of curiosity, would they arrest you in Brazil if you're kids were not attending school?
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_subgenius
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Re: One Hundred Reasons to Abandon Public Education Now

Post by _subgenius »

Kevin Graham wrote:Do you really need this spelled out for you?

Not really, you see i am NOT an MSNBC viewer, so i can grasp simple things fairly well.

Kevin Graham wrote: If we "drop public education" altogether there simply isn't enough private education elsewhere to meet demand. That logically means more people going without education. Like, tens of millions of people! And the majority of those people attending public schools, cannot afford private education even supply could satisfy demand.

speaking of logic....or rather a lack there of.
pretty sure that the OP does not intend for there to be a vacuum.
never the less, even if there was...there is certainly an argument about your assumption that public education is, in fact, education....especially given the list in the OP.
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_Kevin Graham
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Re: One Hundred Reasons to Abandon Public Education Now

Post by _Kevin Graham »

I linked an extensive series of arguments by David Friedman

Better go check your post, because I don't see any links.I saw you throw his name out there with no arguments attached. What's good for the goose...
After I referred to that, you just called him impractical and extreme.

And I explained why.
You argued that we can't drop public education because this will mean that millions of impoverished children will be left out in the cold.

Correct.
The fact that our public education already has this consequence should be taken into any sensible cost/benefit comparison between public and private systems.

You're not explaining yourself here. Twice now. What the hell do you mean by this? Are you referring to preschool?
If you are asserting that all children in poverty would not get an education in a private system, this is simply false.

It isn't false at all. Private systems are designed to make profits. There are no profits to be made from the poor. The voucher idea sounds all nice until you realize that single-parent households don't give a crap about doing the proper paperwork to make sure it happens. You may say that's not the fault of the private system, it is the fault of the parent, but that's still proving my point that in a private system children in poverty will be left out in the cold.
They fail to be educated. That's your concern with the fate of impoverished children, right?

Yes, that's right. But if you think all impoverished children "fail to get educated" then you're deluding yourself. At least in a public system, these children have a place to go and a chance to make it. And many of them do. Many of them don't. But the point is, they'lll have that chance. Many of them succeed after receiving multiple chances, acts of forgiveness, etc. In a private system there is no forgiveness. There is the choice between performing or expulsion. Because a private school won't stand for having its profits threatened by enrolling low scoring students.
You are worried that x% of poor parents won't fund their education, right? If you assert, as you do, that failed students are getting a raw deal at home and that's why they fail, that still is the case when kids have parents who won't pay for schooling. I am saying it isn't immediately obvious that graduation rates would be lower than they are in a private system.

It should be obvious. It is difficult to graduate when you are not allowed to stay in school due to non-payment and poor performance, neither of which is an issue in a public system. That fewer American children would participate in such a system should be a no-brainer. It is difficult enough trying to get poorer kids to go to school as it is, and even more difficult to get them interested in the whole concept of education.
The comparison is between the public system as it exists in reality, which is deeply flawed, and the private system's flaws.

Well no crap. I've underscored those flaws for you, and you still think there would be no difference in the number of kids "left out in the cold." In a private system, they would literally be left out. In a public system, they're only left out in the sense that some will not get educated because of their own choices. This complaint you forward presupposes that the reason some poor kids don't get educated is because there is something wrong with the teaching. I call BS on that one. You can take "teacher of the year" from one location and transfer him/her to the worst school in the country, and you're likely not to see much difference. The fact is some kids have serious social issues that require far more time and effort to overcome before serious learning can be expected. But that cannot happen unless you're willing to take the time required. There are of course few exceptions. The movie about Jaime Escalante comes to mind, but if anyone has actually seen the movie "Stand and Deliver," they know that he did more work than four teachers, two psychologists and a half dozen social workers and all those kids' parents put together.
_ajax18
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Re: One Hundred Reasons to Abandon Public Education Now

Post by _ajax18 »

You can take "teacher of the year" from one location and transfer him/her to the worst school in the country, and you're likely not to see much difference.


I actually agree with you on that one. That's disturbing.

But the idea that it's my responsiblity to pay for every social problem created by fathers who walk away from their families or girls who decide to become mothers at 14 is as morally reprehensible to me as I am to you.
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_Molok
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Re: One Hundred Reasons to Abandon Public Education Now

Post by _Molok »

Droopy wrote:The vast majority of people who know who Snooky and JayZ are are probably only dimly aware of Rush Limbaugh (or Laura Ingram, or Carl Levin, or Sean Hannity) and, if they have heard of him, have never listened to him.

Hi Droopy, I have a question. Did you mean to include Carl Levin, the congressman, in this list, or did you mean to say Mark Levin? Mark Levin is a radio host like the rest of the people in your list, and he's definitely someone I could picture you listening to.
_EAllusion
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Re: One Hundred Reasons to Abandon Public Education Now

Post by _EAllusion »

Kevin Graham wrote:Better go check your post, because I don't see any links.I saw you throw his name out there with no arguments attached. What's good for the goose...


http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/vie ... 75#p686175

Here's an argument from David Friedman for eliminating public schools:

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Libertari ... ools1.html

The upshot here is that he makes arguments that are at least worth responding to.



Then referring to this post:

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/vie ... 72#p686972

I'm somewhat friendly to the idea of school privatization and I found the article to be head-smackingly ridiculous. Double-facepalm worthy. I tried to offer Friedman as a more reasonable, thoughtful advocate for the same idea.


Then you quote my post and chime in:

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/vie ... 74#p686974

Friedman is not practical and too extreme.


So, no, it is you who are not following the thread properly.
You're not explaining yourself here. Twice now. What the hell do you mean by this? Are you referring to preschool?


I'm referring to the fact that millions of impoverished children do not get an education in our public school system. This is evidenced by the fact that 1) much less than 100% of people graduate. In some areas, only a small fraction of poor minorities actually graduate. 2) We have empirical data showing educational outcomes to be extremely poor for a large group of bottom performers among the impoverished.

So, if your complaint about a private education system is that you do not believe that impoverished children will be able to be successfully educated and graduate, you have to compare that against the fact that this is already a problem with the public education system.

If you are asserting that all children in poverty would not get an education in a private system, this is simply false.

It isn't false at all.

It doesn't match historical records on private education, which has existed in different times and places, nor is it intuitive. A % of the poor are highly likely to scrimp and save and sacrifice for education of their children. We have a large immigrant population where there is clear evidence of that occurring. The idea that literally every poor family simply will not care for or be in a position to acquire funds for education is extremely implausible. It is the case that some will not, and you are better served focusing on whether you we have reason to think that would be more prevalent than the breakdowns in the current system.

The voucher idea sounds all nice until you realize that single-parent households don't give a crap about doing the proper paperwork to make sure it happens.

Good lord you hate poor people. This is offensive.
In a public system, they're only left out in the sense that some will not get educated because of their own choices.


You need to get your story straight. Do children fail to be educated because of a confluence of factors like poor family life, or are they simply chosing to be failures? If they are just chosing that route, why is it that poor minorities are massively more likely to fail to receive an education? Do you think black people just inherently suck at making good choices?

This complaint you forward presupposes that the reason some poor kids don't get educated is because there is something wrong with the teaching. I call b***s*** on that one. You can take "teacher of the year" from one location and transfer him/her to the worst school in the country, and you're likely not to see much difference.

If only people have experimented with this to see if this actually is the case. Oh wait. I'll let google scholar break the news to you.

There are of course few exceptions. The movie about Jaime Escalante comes to mind, but if anyone has actually seen the movie "Stand and Deliver," they know that he did more work than four teachers, two psychologists and a half dozen social workers and all those kids' parents put together.


The movie was misleading in this respect, actually.

Here's a good article: http://reason.com/archives/2002/07/01/s ... -revisited

His success was specifically because he had a smart team around him doing work to build up a system that only gradually succeeded from the bottom up. The movie compresses this reality into an account focusing on his personal heroism and a single group of students that is essentially fictional. Your description is basically completely wrong outside of the fact that he was an exceptional teacher who measurably improved student performance.
_Droopy
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Re: One Hundred Reasons to Abandon Public Education Now

Post by _Droopy »

Molok wrote:
Droopy wrote:The vast majority of people who know who Snooky and JayZ are are probably only dimly aware of Rush Limbaugh (or Laura Ingram, or Carl Levin, or Sean Hannity) and, if they have heard of him, have never listened to him.

Hi Droopy, I have a question. Did you mean to include Carl Levin, the congressman, in this list, or did you mean to say Mark Levin? Mark Levin is a radio host like the rest of the people in your list, and he's definitely someone I could picture you listening to.



Sorry, it was Mark. Brain cramp.
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