Orson Scott Card Fouls His Own Nest

[_Bazooka]

Here is an interesting idea from Elder Card:

"But on economic matters, I’m a committed communitarian. I regard the Soviet Union as simply state monopoly capitalism. It was run the way the United States would be if Microsoft owned everything. Real communism has never been tried! I would like to see government controls expanded, laws that allow capitalism to not reward the most rapacious, exploitative behavior. I believe government has a strong role to protect us from capitalism. I’m ashamed of our society for how it treats the poor. One of the deep problems in Mormon society is that really for the last 75 years Mormons have embraced capitalism to a shocking degree.”

That shocking degree part sounds intriguing.

I'm guessing Card vehemently disagree's with the decision to spend Church money on a shopping Mall rather than the poor & needy.
Or is he perhaps being a little one eyed?

[_Bhodi]

The Church? No. A subset of its members that refuse to obey the gospel, follow the living prophets, and live by "every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God," yes, if that is what must come. I doubt, however, that those who have taken the Holy Ghost for their guide and teacher, and who are living faithfully, will fail to cast aside earthly, secular ideology and tradition as they grow and mature spiritually. I can't speak for the NOMs and "middle way" LDS, but as for the valiant and faithful, I have all confidence in their ability to separate the wheat from the chaff in their own social and cultural milieus, whether American or otherwise.

I think that there are many active, believing LDS members who would find your positions to be an actual inversion of the Gospel, particularly outside of the US. I would think that Elder Uctdorf, as a German, would have a different opinion on any number of political issues that you have conflated with the Gospel, but that others view as completely separate. Would you consider this apostasy on their part, should a conflict exist, or on your part?

The Church is a church, not a government. It cannot regulate "capitalism" or anything else, including the behavior and conduct of its members. It teaches correct principles, and we govern ourselves, if, at any rate, we desire the blessings of the gospel in time and eternity.

The Church can call for support on issues such as limited executive pay, higher minimum wage, a reverse income tax, or any other issues that are regulatory on unrestrained capitalism. These are socially conscious issues, so fall within the purview of the Church.

This is a meaningless concept, fraught with ideological baggage. I have no idea what you mean here unless you define your terms more explicitly.

The Church can call for restrictions on chemical content of water, oppose fracking, or any other issue on the premise that it damages the environment and as custodians of the environment we have a divine responsibility. Would you oppose these things? If LDS members were active in these efforts outside of the US, and consider it their Gospel duty, would you consider them in apostasy?

Abandon the law of chastity, eh? No, sorry, but that's not going to happen, and I have no fear of the Church leaving me. My only fear is, and should be, that I might leave the Church, in one sense or another, through transgression and rebellion against the commandments of God.

I said advocate for equality. Such as...

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7053 ... tml?pg=all

Is this apostasy, or simply being a good neighbor and tolerant of other views?

[_Droopy]

they had all things common
they had all things common
they had all things common
Please debate it with the writers/translators of the Bible! I am not one of them.

As a number of modern prophets and apostles in harmony and unanimity with each other have stated time and time again for generations, this is an equal claim to the resources of the Zion community, not a claim to a condition of economic equality relative to other members of that community. That is false doctrine, its not a part of the gospel, its not taught in the Church, and has never been supported by the living oracles.

It also has a long, well recorded and understood history of abject economic, social, and moral failure. The gospel of Jesus Christ, suffice it to say, does not.

by the way Did You read Marx?

I have read Marx and I continue to read Marx (and Engles, and other of his disciples).

I was lucky enough to read him...
We (including ME if I may mention one special nobody) was taught Marx during socialism, which is - You know - the entrance-hall of communism,

Yes, it is.

[_Droopy]

I'm guessing Card vehemently disagrees with the decision to spend Church money on a shopping Mall rather than the poor & needy.
Or is he perhaps being a little one eyed?

Once the church goes completely, flat, tin pot broke doing this, what would you consider to be its next best move, as an institution (oh, and by the way, what about all the jobs that mall created?)?

[_Droopy]

I said advocate for equality. Such as...

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7053 ... tml?pg=all

Is this apostasy, or simply being a good neighbor and tolerant of other views?\

"does not object to rights regarding hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights, so long as these do not infringe on the integrity of the family or the constitutional rights of churches and their adherents to administer and practice their religion free from government interference."

Of course this isn't apostasy. Note also the following, from the same article:

"The church remains unequivocally committed to defending the bedrock foundation of marriage between a man and a woman,"

[_Tarski]

Yes, all very Satanic, all very Luciferian, and all very much a continuation of the war in Heaven that we all participated in those long, forgotten ages ago.

Luciferian?
(boo!)
Sometimes we must all just step back and notice how bizzarre it is that supposed grown up men take such fairy tales seriously.

war in Heaven that we all participated in those long, forgotten ages ago

was this the war of the ring? Oh no that was a different fairly tale.

[_moksha]

war in Heaven that we all participated in those long, forgotten ages ago

If only memory served, we might find that Droopy was a Centurian, while Dr. Scratch was either a Frumentari or was posted to Kolobian Intelligence.

[_3sheets2thewind]

So is Card an apostate for rejecting capitalism OR a true Saint for rejecting ssm?

[_ldsfaqs]

I think Orson has grown a lot since that 2000 interview, and I also don't think his views are being fully understood in those "snip-its" of that interview.

Droopy I've heard Card many times as a sub with various Conservative talk radio shows, and he doesn't at all promote most of the things you are thinking he does, but the exact opposite, being very intelligent and wise. Obviously he being himself isn't going to say every single thing we all agree on, but I don't believe you've really represented his full views of these issues accurately. Although, I would agree he likely shouldn't have said things the way he said them at the time, and I don't think they are entirely his views now.

[_Droopy]

I think Orson has grown a lot since that 2000 interview, and I also don't think his views are being fully understood in those "snip-its" of that interview.

Droopy I've heard Card many times as a sub with various Conservative talk radio shows, and he doesn't at all promote most of the things you are thinking he does, but the exact opposite, being very intelligent and wise. Obviously he being himself isn't going to say every single thing we all agree on, but I don't believe you've really represented his full views of these issues accurately. Although, I would agree he likely shouldn't have said things the way he said them at the time, and I don't think they are entirely his views now.

The entire interview:

http://www.salon.com/2000/02/03/card/

I don't think anything was taken out of context here, or misrepresented. Card has, indeed, expressed similar views of free market economics, taxation etc. since that time in his op-ed columns. If he's moderated his views since that time, I'd love to take a look at it.