Turn it off

[_Albion]

I believe that one day I will indeed see God but I will be clothed in a righteousness borrowed from the one who redeemed me by his atonement. Clothed in his righteousness, with none of my own that would make me worthy, and resurrected to an immortal and purified state I will be able to gaze upon a holy God but that condition is quite different from our current mortal condition which prevents us from seeing God in all his full and complete glory.

[_ldsfaqs]

As an additional point, Tobin, it is you who is pitting one scripture against another. You want to take your Exodus quote as a stand alone proof text despite the clarification of it given in Deuteronomy and the emphatic statements of John. I try to read scripture as a whole not basing my understanding on a single verse or passage as a proof text to make it support the position I have already arrived at. I think the shallowness of your argument is highlighted by the personal nature of your response. Attacking the messenger is no response to the message.

Albion..... We are Mormons for a reason, it's entirely because YOUR "christianity" pitting of one scripture against another, cherry picking "proof-texts" to prove your theology while ignoring others which clearly debunk such a literal view (i.e. the God is spirit verse, when plenty of other text demonstrates that God is much more than that, and the context of the verse isn't at all saying God is "only" spirit). This issue is no different.

There are a couple of "DOZEN" proof-texts from the Bible alone which demonstrate clearly that man HAS seen God, the Exodus quote is not even close to "alone" as you claim.

Read my previous post and look at the scriptures and analysis yourself. You don't have to believe us, believe the Bible. Further, the personal attack comes from your own personal attack on our intelligence.

[_Albion]

Perhaps if you wish to join in this discussion you can respond to the scripture from Deuteronomy I posted which clearly clarifies the incident recorded in Exodus and which Tobin posted as his proof text of people seeing God. He seems not to want to acknowledge it or the clarification of the details that it provides and offers no explanation for it. I would, too, be happy to look at a few of the "dozens" of scriptures you suggest as proving that men have seen God. I do not dispute that men have had encounters with God...that they have spoken with him...that they have been encompassed in his presence until their countenances have shone with his reflected glory. What I do stand by is that no man has seen God in his full holy and glorious state...not could he stand in that presence. While you are at it, your explanation of Jesus' own words recorded in John 6: "No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; (Jesus himself) only he has seen the Father." I am sorry and I mean it as no insult, but I'll take Jesus' words over both yours and Tobin's.

[_Tobin]

Perhaps if you wish to join in this discussion you can respond to the scripture from Deuteronomy I posted which clearly clarifies the incident recorded in Exodus and which Tobin posted as his proof text of people seeing God. He seems not to want to acknowledge it or the clarification of the details that it provides and offers no explanation for it. I would, too, be happy to look at a few of the "dozens" of scriptures you suggest as proving that men have seen God. I do not dispute that men have had encounters with God...that they have spoken with him...that they have been encompassed in his presence until their countenances have shone with his reflected glory. What I do stand by is that no man has seen God in his full holy and glorious state...not could he stand in that presence. While you are at it, your explanation of Jesus' own words recorded in John 6: "No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; (Jesus himself) only he has seen the Father." I am sorry and I mean it as no insult, but I'll take Jesus' words over both yours and Tobin's.

I'll let you and faqs argue about it. I see no point to further discussion with you about this. And your Deuteronomy explanation of this verse, which clearly states what they saw, is just baloney. I see no reason to respond to nonsense like that, just like I see no reason to believe that your view 1 John is anything but a distortion when he is clearly talking about something else entirely.

And I'll invite you to seek, see and speak with God. God is real, despite your fictional beliefs. You CAN see him and speak with him. He will tell you the truth if you'll let him. I hope someday you will open yourself up to that truth.

[_Albion]

Ah, now we have it...Tobin thinks Deuteronomy is baloney because it gives a amplification of a verse he finds so supportive of his view. Best post all day, Tobin.

[_Albion]

That should read an amplification for the grammar police.

[_jo1952]

Not that the Bible seems to matter much to Tobin but:

Not that the whole truth and the whole Bible actually matters much to Albion.... but

"No one has EVER seen God...." NIV 1 John 4:12 Many in the scriptures have seen manifestations of God but none have seen God in all his glory and light. Sinful man could not survive a nano second in the full presence of God and even to be close to his glory changes the human countenance as witnessed by the appearance of Moses when he came down from the mountain. The adversary on the other hand can take on the appearance of light according to scripture.

Criticism

Critics claim that the Bible teaches that God cannot be seen by mortals, and so claims by Joseph Smith and others to have seen God the Father or Jesus Christ must be false.
See also: Citations to the critical sources for these claims

Summary conclusion

Numerous Biblical verses attest that God has been seen by select humans. John 1:18, which the critics use to argue otherwise, has been interpreted differently by early Christians to avoid the self-contradiction which the critics' reading creates for the Bible.
If God can say "I change not," (Malachi 3:6) and he has appeared to mortals in the past, as the Bible bears record, why would he change his tactics and refuse to appear to modern prophets?

Supporting Data

See also FAIR wiki article charging that D&C 84 claims that the priesthood is necessary for any vision of God (click here).

The most commonly used Biblical citation invoked by the critics is probably John 1:18, which reads “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”

Early Christian author Irenaeus wrote in A.D. 180 that this scripture should be read “For "no man," he says, "hath seen God at any time," unless "the only-begotten Son of God, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared [Him]."[1]

Interestingly, Joseph Smith's revision of the Bible agrees with Irenaeus' reading:
No man hath seen God at any time except he hath borne record of the Son . . .(italics represent changes in JST)

Irenaeus' "unless" (or Joseph's "except") makes all the difference. Irenaeus knew that righteous men had seen God in the past:

Acts 7:55-56
Genesis 32:30
Genesis 17:1
Genesis 18:1
Acts 7:2
Exodus 3:6
Exodus 19:11
Exodus 33:11
Numbers 12:7-8
1 Kings 9:2
1 Kings 11:9
Isaiah 6:1,5
Exodus 24:10-11
Deuteronomy 34:10
Deuteronomy 5:4
Judges 13:22
Genesis 3:
Hebrews 11:27
Job 42:5
Job 33:26
Job 19:26
Ezekiel 1:1
Ezekiel 8:1-4
Joshua 5:12-15
Revelation 22:4)

Furthermore, by adopting this approach, Irenaeus' interpretation of John 1:18 harmonized with the rest of the Bible and the qualifications which the Bible provides for those who may see God.

The requirements are:
Must be "of God" “Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.” (John 6:46.) Some critics will argue that only Jesus "is of God", but that position is unscriptural. Moses too was "of God"(Deuteronomy 33:1), as well as Samuel (1 Samuel 9:10), Shemaiah (1 Kings 12:22), and Elijah (1 Kings 17:24).

Must have "peace and holiness" within you "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which, no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14.)

Must be pure in heart "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God" (Matthew 5:8.)
As the numerous Biblical references demonstrate, the idea of seeing God is hardly foreign to Hebrew or early Christian thought. There are also non-scriptural examples: Philo the Jew taught that the name Israel was compounded of 3 words “ish” “rah” “El”, which means “man seeing God;” this view is also found in the apocryphal Prayer of Joseph. [2] And, an early Christian document called the Clementine Homilies portrays the apostle Peter as agreeing with Irenaeus' view:
For I maintain that the eyes of mortals cannot see the incorporeal form of the Father or Son, because it is illumined by exceeding great light. . . . For he who sees God cannot live. For the excess of light dissolves the flesh of him who sees; unless by the secret power of God the flesh be changed into the nature of light, so that it can see light.[3]

Joseph Smith revealed the same essential truth (DC 67:11, DC 84:22).
It is the critics' view of John 1:18 that is novel and at odds with the earliest Christian understanding of the scripture, not Joseph Smith's.

Endnotes

[note] Irenaeus, "Against Heresies," in Chapter 6 Ante-Nicene Fathers, edited by Philip Schaff (Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1886)1:427. ANF ToC off-site This volume
[note] Charles A. Gieschen, Angelomorphic Christology: Antecedents and Early Evidence (Leiden; New York; Köln: Brill, 1998), 139. off-site
[note] Apostle Peter (attributed), "Clementine Homilies," in 17:16 Ante-Nicene Fathers, edited by Philip Schaff (Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1886)8:322–323. ANF ToC off-site This volume

Wow, LDSFAQS! This was an excellent post!!! Thank you for your love and dedication to seeking and sharing Truth!

I would also like to add Jesus taught us that our spirit MUST be reborn; a.k.a., born of the Spirit in order to be able to see God and to enter His Kingdom.

Shalom,

jo

[_Tobin]

Hi Jo,

It is nice to see you back and I agree with you, faqs has presented plenty of evidince of accounts in the Bible of man seeing and experiencing God. That is why I feel it is rather pointless to continue arguing with Albion about it when he is so completely and obviously out of his depth.

Tobin

[_jo1952]

Hi Jo,

It is nice to see you back and I agree with you, faqs has presented plenty of evidince of accounts in the Bible of man seeing and experiencing God. That is why I feel it is rather pointless to continue arguing with Albion about it when he is so completely and obviously out of his depth.

Thank you, Tobin! It is good to be back.

I believe that Albion is temporarily stuck; but he is not alone. Also, we are ALL blind to whatever we are not yet ready to see; yet none of us are alone. We can learn to recognize whether or not we are "stuck" by honestly looking at our spiritual growth. If we are not expanding and adding to our understanding of Truth, then we are not progressing. As we each slow or stop in our experiencing additional Truth and/or clarification of Truth already revealed, we can learn to re-evaluate our spirit self, and do whatever is necessary to be able to have more Truth revealed. Thus it is that I believe ALL of us are where we should be in our journey. WE are the ones who choose whether or not to prepare ourselves to be able to receive more Truth. This journey is NOT easy; it was not meant to be. Fortunately, the more awakened our spirit becomes, the more Mercy we receive wherein the Spirit of Christ assists us more and more.

Meanwhile, we all will limit our ability to receive more Truth from time to time simply by limiting ourselves in what we will allow ourselves to believe. As such, we use worldly, man-made standards which wind up distorting Truth; and we don't even know that this is what we are doing because we are blind to knowing it! Even so, this is all part of the learning we must experience in order for our spirit to be born of the Spirit.

Shalom,

jo

[_Franktalk]

I believe that one day I will indeed see God but I will be clothed in a righteousness borrowed from the one who redeemed me by his atonement. Clothed in his righteousness, with none of my own that would make me worthy, and resurrected to an immortal and purified state I will be able to gaze upon a holy God but that condition is quite different from our current mortal condition which prevents us from seeing God in all his full and complete glory.

So typical of many Christians. Rest on the cross of Christ and refuse to carry your own. Yet we are told to carry our own.

This distortion of scripture of many Christians leads them all over the place with false doctrine. It was Peter who warned us to carefully read Paul or we would stumble on the words. And since few will be on the right path that means most stumble. So the position of orthodox Christianity is filled with false doctrine.

So open up your ears and do not turn off ideas. Only when we know that someone is going the wrong way do we turn them off. But that only happens on a temporary basis and only when confirmed by revelation. The ideas of men mean nothing.