Rollo Tomasi wrote:I guess you missed the part in the essay where Smith referred to Dehlin as a "sociological apostate"? (See Dubious Review at 81-82).
No, I remember it. I simply don't see it on the same level either. Apostate, though holding a negative conotation to believers, means one who renounces their faith. It seems like Dehlin has done that a time or two.
Is it really on the same level?
Look at it this way -- at the time Smith's essay was published for the first time on February 23, 2013, Dehlin was an active member of the LDS Church. So Smith's claim as of the date of publication that Dehlin was a "sociological apostate" was a lie and should have been immediately retracted. Do you not agree?
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."
-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
LOL wow you can only view 10 pages as a guest?? Forget it.
MAD wrote:You've exceeded the maximum number of pages views (10) you can open as a guest. To remove this message and become a member please register a free account or login. It will only take a few moments and you'll be able to view board normally. The restriction will be disabled at 09 March 2013 - 03:33 PM.
Why on earth would you put a restriction like that?
Harold Lee wrote:LOL wow you can only view 10 pages as a guest?? Forget it I'm not registering.
It is easy to access as a guest and to get around the 10 views restrictions all you have to do is clear your cookies and you can log right back in.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
why me wrote:Lets look at Don Bradley. He left...wrote critical material about the church and now he is making up for it and he is doing a great job. Can you do the same?
Stormy Waters wrote:Making up for it? I wonder how Bradley would feel about your classification of his current work.
why me wrote:I think that he will feel rather good about it. I don't think that it is easy to leave, write critical pieces about the church and then return to church knowing what was previously written. I admire Don very much for the work that he is now doing.
why me, Don's work on Mormon history has been consistent before, during and after his disaffection and return. This narrative you have created of Don needing to "make up for something" is insulting and offensive and demonstrates how little you know about him and his on-going research and writing.
Last edited by Anonymous on Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
what exactly is will's point in highlighting MsJack's thread as an example of a hit piece against him. what was the state of his publication that was due out when the thread was started?
"Rocks don't speak for themselves" is an unfortunate phrase to use in defense of a book produced by a rock actually 'speaking' for itself... (I have a Question, 5.15.15)
Blixa wrote:why me, Don's work on Mormon history has been consistent before, during and after his disaffection and return. This narrative you have created of Don needing to "make up for something" is insulting and offensive and demonstrates how little you know about him and his on-going research and writing.
It also betrays an assumption that Mormon history research must be result driven, and that Don Bradley's scholarly work is guided by "switching teams" instead of established, professional standards.
why me wrote:I think john that you were the problem because you drifted like a jellyfish on the open sea.
Feel free to mock my journey if you wish.
Having a faith crisis is really, really hard. Doing it in public, while sincerely trying to help others along the way -- is even harder.
I don't apologize for my journey. And frankly, I think that one of the biggest failings of FAIR/FARMS/Maxwell is their inability to truly empathize with the disaffected. Frankly, you fit right in.
I do have empathy for you. But you did it all in the open. And people followed you. And you also know that you weren't the most friendly to the LDS church during your out phase. Don't you think that the apologists had a right to critique your work? I think that they did.
Just look how often Dan has been critiqued on this board and on the internet. And these critiques have been mean and vicious to say the least. You certainly not have experienced such critiques from the apologists. Greg's piece was an honest attempt to critique your work with your podcasts and conferences and chapters and blogs. Nothing more. I think that if you would have returned to the church two years ago, no critique would have been written. This was written when you were out of the church.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Blixa wrote: why me, Don's work on Mormon history has been consistent before, during and after his disaffection and return. This narrative you have created of Don needing to "make up for something" is insulting and offensive and demonstrates how little you know about him and his on-going research and writing.
I admire Don. But the fact is when he left the church, the critics loved him for it. And he wrote things on his blog if I am not mistaken. It was a while ago. And some members most likely left the fold. But now Don is back and doing wonderful work.
I can only speak for myself. If I were a known apologist and left the church and began to write critical pieces and I was having an impact and then when I did more research into historical areas and came back to the church, I would feel a little concerned for those who left because of my possible influence. And I would try to make up for it. But that is me.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Blixa wrote:why me, Don's work on Mormon history has been consistent before, during and after his disaffection and return. This narrative you have created of Don needing to "make up for something" is insulting and offensive and demonstrates how little you know about him and his on-going research and writing.
It also betrays an assumption that Mormon history research must be result driven, and that Don Bradley's scholarly work is guided by "switching teams" instead of established, professional standards.
Here is the deal: Don came back because of his research. He regained his testimony of Joseph Smith. And now he is doing great work for the church. John could follow his example.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
William Schryver wrote:If I were Greg, I would only respond to the "review" on the condition that the cowardly "Rollo Tomasi" attach his real name to it.
A Mopologist engaging in ad hominem. Shocking.
Mayan Elephant wrote:what exactly is will's point in highlighting MsJack's thread as an example of a hit piece against him. what was the state of his publication that was due out when the thread was started?
It was something he had written on the Book of Abraham or the KEP, I think. He claimed it was typeset and proofed and ready to hit the presses of one of the BYU journals when my thread was used as an excuse to put the kibosh on it.
I've already addressed the "but what about MsJack's 'hit piece' on Schryver?" objections here.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13