Liahona Irreantum Rabbanah deseret

[Guest]

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[_Themis]

You are shifting the discussion to whether ancient magical practices work, which is an entirely different subject.

Not shifting at all, but trying to get you to see an important point. The whole reason people back then and today didn't view it as legitimate is because they don't think it works. They also don't see any good evidence for it working. Joseph is using a process people back then and many if not most LDS would see as no different then things like crystals balls and psychics. It doesn't solve the problem that Joseph may have believed it worked.

It'll take too long to explain.

Possibly, but I ask because when I have investigated others claims of what Joseph couldn't have know I find that he either did or easily could have since it was part of his environment. Like I said before, Joseph was a great borrower of ideas from his environment, and he certainly didn't mind those that might be seen as farther from traditional Christianity of the time. Again we need to be careful of parallels. They can always be found in large numbers, and usually don't mean what we might want them to mean. I see this mistake from both believers and non-believers regarding LDS issues.

Your point? There are also some people who won't believe no matter what amount of evidence is presented them.

That would be a better argument for those who were never members, but not so good for those who have spent most of their lives as believers and now do not believe due to evidences not supporting those beliefs.

[_SteelHead]

That people believed that Joseph Smith could scry, does not mean his scrying worked.

On that note, I am willing to come to your residence and scry for treasure hurried in your basement for $5k a week plus travel expenses, 4 week minimum. I guarantee my results to be equally effective as Joseph Smith's treasure hunting activity.

[_Res Ipsa]

Steelhead, I agree with Nelson that you are missing his point. His point is this: Smith said he was restoring stuff from the past. Therefore, as long you can draw a parallel between what Smith did in the 1800's with any sort of ancient tradition, what Smith did is legitimate. For example, if Smith had killed and burnt children, it would have been legitimate because what he was doing was in the ancient tradition of Biblical sacrifice and invoked the story of traditional story of Abraham sacrificing his son.

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[_Themis]

Whether it works is subjective, so I don't see whether people believe/most LDS believe is relevant. SE Robinson said that the reason the Bible Dictionary (a.k.a. McConkie) stated that the Wise Men who visited Jesus were not magi (when they in fact they were) , was to prevent people from dialing psychic hotlines.

What members believe is relevant. So even with more study of it, it remains a problem for many. There is no good evidence these kind of things work, and they are a great tool for the fraud, and even those who may believe there is something to it.

I agree that Joseph Smith was a voracious borrower. He made it clear he believed Christianity was shattered and he had to find the parts and piece them back together (and in light of modern Biblical scholarship, he did a damn good job). In fact, Oxford is coming out with a two-volume work on the history of Mormon theology, with that as its driving thesis.

Damn good job is a very subjective statement. You would have to be more specific.

Were there things he could not have gotten anywhere? Well, the current explanation for Joseph Smith was that he was a religious genius. Bloom at Yale seems to think this is the case for his uncanny ability to restore esoteric Jewish traditions. As is William Albright's explanation for why there are Egyptian names in the Book of Mormon when no one knew Egyptian at the time. Whether to attribute it to something supernatural or to his genius is anyone's choice.

Again you would need to be more specific. As to Egyptian names, which names do you think are Egyptian? How close are they to the Egyptian equivalent. What is the likelihood for one who makes up many names that you would find some that are a match for all the different Egyptian names we know of? I will ignore the problems of this group using Egyptian names, not to mention Greek names. It's also interesting that supposedly we have Egyptian names in the Book of Mormon, but Joseph claims of Egyptian words in the Book of Abraham didn't work out.

Critics like to point out that Joseph Smith butchered the definition of elohim. I'd like to ask them how has just about everything he taught about the nature of God now the consensus among Bible scholars today, when he couldn't even get the Hebrew right.

You would need to be much more specific on what you are asserting.

Given 1 in 3 Americans change faiths during their lifetimes, I don't see why this is surprising. You also have to account for the fact that some people traumatized by negative evidence lose the mental capacity to process evidence in both directions.

There are a variety of reasons people change religions that have nothing to do with physical evidences. Those who do change beliefs based on evidences tend to be better suited to be able to change them again with new understanding.

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[_ludwigm]

But many Egyptian and Hebrew names in the Book of Mormon were used in a way in which it's clear the author knew their definitions in Hebrew. For example:

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... =11&id=301
http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... m=6&id=369

There are a whole bunch more.

That two "publications" handle Nephi.
Where are the whole bunch?

Amnigaddah, Angola, Archeantus, Antiparah, Antiomno, Antion, Ammonihah, Antionah, Antionum, Antiparah, Antipus, Antum, Ani-Anti, Amaron ...
Enough of "A"s?
then... Gidgiddoni, Kishkumen (by the way Gadiantons), Zarahemla.

What are the meanings of these words in Hebrew, Egyptian (reformed and/or original), Aramaic, Persian, Arabic - or greek or Latin or Jacobean English...

In biblical times, every name had a meaning.
As the words smith, young, taylor, woodruff, snow, smith, grant, smith... ohhh, too many smiths...

I agree that if you make up a bunch of Semitic-sounding names, some of them will turn out right by chance.

Nephi.

Have You some other?

And this is the same game critics play with place names in the Great Lakes area.

That game over, man.

[_Themis]

What members believe is relevant. So even with more study of it, it remains a problem for many. There is no good evidence these kind of things work, and they are a great tool for the fraud, and even those who may believe there is something to it.

If they see things through the lens of their infantile faith, that Ouijia boards and anything of the like are bad, they will have problems. If they understand that there's no difference between divining rods and Moses transforming his staff into snakes, and that the Wise Men who visited Jesus were magicians, then it becomes less of a problem (or not a problem at all in my case).

So what a member believes is relevant. I don't doubt for many it will become less of a problem, but still for many members further study will not make it any better. This is because they know are going to have a hard time viewing them as something that actually works. There is a reason the vast majority of educated people have rejected them. They don't really work. It can be used by those who may believe they really can see the future in a crystal ball, as well as those who know they are a fraud. Even Joseph used it to make money looking for treasure. Maybe if he had actually found some it would help.

What I remember from the wallet story is that the person did not find it exactly where Joseph said it would be, but it was in the general area. Did God really use his power to help Joseph on such a trivial matter, and yet does not use his power in so many other more important matters as apologists will want to argue? Or did he just pretend to use God's power and tell him based on an educated guess like so many others. Are we going to know about all the misses? How does one lose a wallet? Doubtful you would lose a wallet just walking down the road, but if you were bending down doing something you might just lose your wallet. I seem to recall information that he was doing just that in the area where the wallet was found. Could Joseph have been smart enough to ask questions like any good magician, psychic or fortune teller will do?

I cannot remember much about the horse story, but don't doubt he could have used similar techniques. Then again he could have just been random chance and we don't hear about all the misses.

I remember the hat pin story. Some may not know that Joesph was on the ground helping to look for it before being asked to use his seer stone. Would Joseph be smart enough to know Martin would eventually ask him to use his seer stone? Could he have found it, hidden it under that branch, so as to help him find it when his face was in the hat? I only thought of this because I have done similar things to mess with people heads in fun.