Evolution Again!

[_Bazooka]

Hey Ceeboo, I watched a tv programme recently narrated by David Attenborough about flying dinosaurs and their evolution into birds. It started at 150 million years ago and worked on from there. He showed fascinating fossils etc.

It was called "David Attenboroughs Flying Monsters".

Google it. I think you'd like it.

[_Ceeboo]

Baaaaaaaazooka!

Hey Ceeboo, I watched a tv programme recently narrated by David Attenborough about flying dinosaurs and their evolution into birds. It started at 150 million years ago

Wow!
That is one LOOOOOONG tv program! (I'm sure that was in black and white, yes?) How many potty-breaks did you take during this 150 million years?

and worked on from there. He showed fascinating fossils etc.

It was called "David Attenboroughs Flying Monsters".

Google it. I think you'd like it.

Cool, I'll check it out! (Thanks)

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_Ceeboo]

No scientific explanation required!

Take a seat, put your feet up and just shoot the crap with Ceeboo.

Any thoughts, guesses, observations on this?

Speaking of birds - Another mind-bender (to me anyway) is migration in general. Let's take a look at just one!

Migration of the Golden Plover:

The Siberian species of the Golden Plavor migrates from Alaska to Hawaii each winter.
A 2,500 mile journey that requires non stop flying - no rests (no islands in-between) with a flight time of 88 hours.
Prior to departure, the Golden Plavor puts on an additional 50% of body weight in a short time (extra fat used as source of fuel)
So, even with the extra fuel, it has been calculated that they would still end up about 500 mile short of the final destination (water/death below).

So without map and having a fuel problem, how do they arrive at their destination?

They fly in a V-formation.
This allows the Golden Plavors to fly an additional 1,400 miles.
Since the lead position at the apex of the formation draws the brunt of the work, the birds share turns at the apex position.

Question:

Considering that this strategy must be well known and in place before leaving to a far away destination, and considering that this surely is an amazingly precise 'flight plan', what possible naturalistic explanation could account for this?

What say you?

Peace,
Ceeboo

[Guest]

Hi Ceeboo,

Have you ever tucked in close behind a big rig going down the highway at 70 MPH and watched the RPMs on your tack drop off a bit while you maintained the same speed?

Yes? That's drafting. My wife likes to say that the truck is "breaking wind" for us, which always makes me smile. (Women.)

Anyway, she and I are pilots and can tell you that drafting a big rig (in two dimensions) is nothing compared to what you will experience in terms of wing wake if you follow a heavy jet too closely on final in still air. Small aircraft pilots soon figure out that this is a very, very bad idea. It only takes once. (Just ask my wife.)

Point is it that such effects in the air are in 3 dimensions and you don't have to look at your tachometer to know you are drafting. You can feel the effects of the wing wake in the behavior of your aircraft and in the seat of your pants.

Likewise, migrating birds soon figure out that flying in the wing wake of the guy in front of them cuts down on the effort required to maintain speed and altitude.

Once everybody figures this out (and as you point out they have a few thousand miles each trip to do so), everybody gets in the V-formation.

When the guy in front, who is expending the most effort, decides to fall back and take a break, the next guy is there up front automatically. The V-formation forms up because there is a trailing wing wake from both sides (wings) of the lead bird. This formation also gives each bird a view ahead and allows easy changing of position within the V.

Migrating birds have had million of years to figure all of this out.

[_Equality]

Hi Ceeboo,

Have you ever tucked in close behind a big rig going down the highway at 70 MPH and watched the RPMs on your tack drop off a bit while you maintained the same speed?

Yes? That's drafting. My wife likes to say that the truck is "breaking wind" for us, which always makes me smile. (Women.)

Anyway, she and are pilots and can tell you that drafting a big rig (in two dimensions) is nothing compared to what you will experience in terms of wing wake if you follow a heavy jet too closely on final in still air. Small aircraft pilots soon figure out that this is a very, very bad idea. It only takes once. (Just ask my wife.)

Point is it that such effects in the air are in 3 dimensions and you don't have to look at your tachometer to know you are drafting. You can feel the effects of the wing wake in the behavior of your aircraft and in the seat of your pants.

Likewise, migrating birds soon figure out that flying in the wing wake of the guy in front of them cuts down on the effort required to maintain speed and altitude.

Once everybody figures this out (and as you point out they have a few thousand miles each trip to do so), everybody gets in the V-formation.

When the guy in front, who is expending the most effort, decides to fall back and take a break, the next guy is there up front automatically. The V-formation forms up because there is a trailing wing wake from both sides (wings) of the lead bird. This formation also gives each bird a view ahead and allows easy changing of position within the V.

Migrating birds have had million of years to figure all of this out.

All of that, plus this: even if I (or all the scientists in the world) could not come up with a natural explanation with a high probability of being correct (and as DrW has shown, in this instance there is a pretty simple natural explanation), there would be no reason to leap to a supernatural explanation. Even the most implausible (but possible) natural explanation is going to be far, far more likely to be correct than a supernatural explanation that has precisely zero evidence in its favor. That something in the natural world is at the moment inexplicable does not mean that no natural explanation can ever be found. Nor would the lack of a natural explanation for a given phenomenon justify the acceptance of a supernatural explanation--it would simply justify further inquiry, research, and experimentation.

[_Ceeboo]

W!

Hi Ceeboo,

Have you ever tucked in close behind a big rig going down the highway at 70 MPH and watched the RPMs on your tack drop off a bit while you maintained the same speed?

Yes!

Yes? That's drafting. My wife likes to say that the truck is "breaking wind" for us, which always makes me smile. (Women.)

Smile?
Maybe you should consider cracking a window!

Anyway, she and are pilots and can tell you that drafting a big rig (in two dimensions) is nothing compared to what you will experience in terms of wing wake if you follow a heavy jet too closely on final in still air. Small aircraft pilots soon figure out that this is a very, very bad idea. It only takes once. (Just ask my wife.)

Point is it that such effects in the air are in 3 dimensions and you don't have to look at your tachometer to know you are drafting. You can feel the effects of the wing wake in the behavior of your aircraft and in the seat of your pants.

Likewise, migrating birds soon figure out that flying in the wing wake of the guy in front of them cuts down on the effort required to maintain speed and altitude.

Once everybody figures this out (and as you point out they have a few thousand miles each trip to do so), everybody gets in the V-formation.

When the guy in front, who is expending the most effort, decides to fall back and take a break, the next guy is there up front automatically. The V-formation forms up because there is a trailing wing wake from both sides (wings) of the lead bird. This formation also gives each bird a view ahead and allows easy changing of position within the V.

Yes, I'm with you so far!

Migrating birds have had million of years to figure all of this out.

Here is where I loose you.

Stay with me, friend!

These birds didn't (don't) have millions of years to figure this out. If they failed on the first try - that's it - they all die! (water below)

Yes?
No?

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_Res Ipsa]

Ceeboo, part of the explanation is that the creationist websites that make a big deal out of this plover don't tell the whole story. (Surprise, surprise) There a all kinds of plovers that migrate from far north to the far south. And the ones that winter in Siberia (actually, I think Pacific Plovers) don't just migrate to Hawaii. They migrate south to lots of island locations. (Fiji, etc.) Google up a map of plover migratory routes and you'll see how extensive plover migration is. The difference between the different plover species that do nest in Hawaii is very subtle. Originally, they were thought to be the same. It actually is a good example of how a single species spread over a large range can end up with groups that are physically separate and start to evolve small difference that eventually turn into different species.

Hope this helps.

[Guest]

Hi Ceeboo,

Have you ever tucked in close behind a big rig going down the highway at 70 MPH and watched the RPMs on your tack drop off a bit while you maintained the same speed?

Yes? That's drafting. My wife likes to say that the truck is "breaking wind" for us, which always makes me smile. (Women.)

Anyway, she and are pilots and can tell you that drafting a big rig (in two dimensions) is nothing compared to what you will experience in terms of wing wake if you follow a heavy jet too closely on final in still air. Small aircraft pilots soon figure out that this is a very, very bad idea. It only takes once. (Just ask my wife.)

Point is it that such effects in the air are in 3 dimensions and you don't have to look at your tachometer to know you are drafting. You can feel the effects of the wing wake in the behavior of your aircraft and in the seat of your pants.

Likewise, migrating birds soon figure out that flying in the wing wake of the guy in front of them cuts down on the effort required to maintain speed and altitude.

Once everybody figures this out (and as you point out they have a few thousand miles each trip to do so), everybody gets in the V-formation.

When the guy in front, who is expending the most effort, decides to fall back and take a break, the next guy is there up front automatically. The V-formation forms up because there is a trailing wing wake from both sides (wings) of the lead bird. This formation also gives each bird a view ahead and allows easy changing of position within the V.

Migrating birds have had million of years to figure all of this out.

All of that, plus this: even if I (or all the scientists in the world) could not come up with a natural explanation with a high probability of being correct (and as DrW has shown, in this instance there is a pretty simple natural explanation), there would be no reason to leap to a supernatural explanation. Even the most implausible (but possible) natural explanation is going to be far, far more likely to be correct than a supernatural explanation that has precisely zero evidence in its favor. That something in the natural world is at the moment inexplicable does not mean that no natural explanation can ever be found. Nor would the lack of a natural explanation for a given phenomenon justify the acceptance of a supernatural explanation--it would simply justify further inquiry, research, and experimentation.

Absolutely. Take home post of the day.

[_Res Ipsa]

Ceeboo, here's a paper on the evolution of bird migration that summarizes different theories about how bird migration evolved. http://ckwri.tamuk.edu/fileadmin/tpl/mi ... uderer.pdf It's got some Dr. W talk, but not too much. ;-)

[_Ceeboo]

Absolutely. Best explanation of the day.

It was?

Peace,
Ceeboo