Evolution Again!

[_Ceeboo]

Hey Brad

Ceeboo, here's a paper on the evolution of bird migration that summarizes different theories about how bird migration evolved. http://ckwri.tamuk.edu/fileadmin/tpl/mi ... uderer.pdf It's got some Dr. W talk, but not too much. ;-)

That's not from one of those 'evolutionists' web sites, is it?

I'll check it out (Thanks)


Peace,
Ceeboo

[_Res Ipsa]

That's not from one of those 'evolutionists' web sites, is it?

I'll check it out (Thanks)


Peace,
Ceeboo

Busted!

Here's another one that was pretty good: http://depot.knaw.nl/4529/1/Pulido_3994.pdf

[_Craig Paxton]

Questions:

In the geologic column, why do we see the theropods roaming around 75 million years after the birds appear?
Why are theropod fossils found in cretaceous rocks, while birds are found in jurassic rock? (Out of order, no?)
Did dinosaurs really evolve from birds?

I see that you've been reading anti-evolution internet sights again....but at least you’re seeking out answers. So I'll give you some credit for at least doing that. IF You are truly interested in reading the science behind the theory that birds descended from dinosaurs please read this http://www.nhm.org/site/research-collec ... -dinosaurs It give a quick easy read behind the science and why science has observable evidence to conclude that bird did in fact evolve from dinosaurs. I should add that the article addresses your question.

[_Ceeboo]

Questions:

In the geologic column, why do we see the theropods roaming around 75 million years after the birds appear?
Why are theropod fossils found in cretaceous rocks, while birds are found in jurassic rock? (Out of order, no?)
Did dinosaurs really evolve from birds?

I see that you've been reading anti-evolution internet sights again....but at least you’re seeking out answers. So I'll give you some credit for at least doing that.

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_DrW]

Absolutely. Best explanation of the day.

It was?

Peace,
Ceeboo

Okay, okay. You are right.

How about this:

Absolutely. Take home post of the day.

Better?

Seriously, though. Equality provided words to live by when seeking explanations for unexpected / difficult to understand phenomena.

[Guest]

Here is where I loose you.

Stay with me, friend!

These birds didn't (don't) have millions of years to figure this out. If they failed on the first try - that's it - they all die! (water below)

Yes?
No?

Peace,
Ceeboo

If anybody wants a slick video presentation detailing Ceeboo's question / argument, you can see it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6ZvXqA1P3E

I think the problem here, Ceeboo, is in the very first sentence of your original statement:

Migration of the Golden Plover:

The Siberian species of the Golden Plavor migrates from Alaska to Hawaii each winter.

You imply here that any given group of Plavor have to reach Hawaii, or they die!

This isn't the case.

Only a few Plavor go to Hawaii on their southward migration.
Most go to South Asia and Australasia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Golden_Plover

This wader is migratory and winters in south Asia and Australasia. A few winter in California and Hawaii, USA.

Slowly developing longer distance and more efficient migration techniques would have aided their survival over time. But in no way was the plavor required to fly from Alaska to Hawaii 'from the start' (whatever that would practically mean) with no other survival options available!

I know that's what the video implies, but - lets face it - creationists say all kinds of kooky stuff ;)

The plavors migration direction is generally 'south'. Most don't go anywhere near Hawaii.

Before their long-distance capacity could reach Hawaii, those that happenned to travel in that direction - yes - of course died!
But those that flew in the 'usual' non-Hawaii direction (i.e. most of them!) would have increased survival advantage using good migration flight techniques regardless. (More ground to cover, less energy used in flight to cover the same distance etc.)

As their long-distance flight capacity generally increased over time on south Asia / Australasia migration routes, some of them were able to (eventually) make it to Hawaii.
First of all by 'going off course' or otherwise being diverted in that direction... and then solidifying into a new settled, but still rare, migration pattern.

..and, well, that's about it.
There is no problem for evolution here...
If you think there is, then please explain...

[_moksha]

Yes or No:

In the geologic column, are the bi-pedal dino fossils above the bird fossils?

Peace,
Ceeboo

Ceeboo, perhaps it is possible that birds were the primal creation and that all other life forms
are some deviation from the true image. This would explain their place in the strata of geologic
history. First God, then diatomaceous earth, then Birds and finally the other stuff.

[_Quasimodo]

Slowly developing longer distance and more efficient migration techniques would have aided their survival over time. But in no way was the plavor required to fly from Alaska to Hawaii 'from the start' with no other survival options available!

Yep, wind blows. My guess is that a group of plovers were blown off course by storms in the long distant past and ended up in Hawaii. I'm sure many other groups of plovers over the centuries were blown off course and met a watery demise.

This particular group was lucky enough to find the Hawaiian islands and nested there. Their offspring have returned every year since. No magic.

[_Quasimodo]

Yes or No:

In the geologic column, are the bi-pedal dino fossils above the bird fossils?

Peace,
Ceeboo

Ceeboo, perhaps it is possible that birds were the primal creation and that all other life forms
are some deviation from the true image. This would explain their place in the strata of geologic
history. First God, then diatomaceous earth, then Birds and finally the other stuff.

I think I may be detecting a little avian bias from our beloved penguin.

[_Ceeboo]

Hey Ren

First, thanks for a very worthy thread contribution. (Very interesting)

..and, well, that's about it.
There is no problem for evolution here...
If you think there is, then please explain...

I understand what you are saying BUT, it's not like these birds knew how long the flight was before they departed for Hawaiii (I understand that some went other places but that doesn't speak to the ones that do go on the 88 hour trip each year)

The first time they went (I don't know how many there were or how many go now) they HAD to be able to know what it would take (extra fat and V-formation and flight plan and directions)to make it or they would all die.
And that would just set up the very same issues for the next group who was trying for the first time.

Look, I really don't care what someone believes (Natural selection with lots of random mutations, God, Or a 4 leaf clover stuck under your left elbow) THAT IS SOME REALLY INTERESTING AND FASCINATING STUFF THAT BOGGLES THE MIND!!!

(My mind anyway!)

Peace,
Ceeboo