Exploring the Secret History of the Church

[_Tobin]

Obviously, those who have read my posts know where I stand on the validity of Joseph Smith in any way being an instrument of God. To me he fits one of two categories...he was either a liar and conman who deliberately made the whole thing up, or he was inspired by the spirit and father of all lies who is the god of this world. In either case, I think the ultimate source is the same. So a question. If Smith's inspiration was the great deceiver, is it not logical that those who seek a "spiritual" confirmation of his work and ideas would have it confirmed by the same spirit?

No, because you make the false assumption that the Devil is more powerful than God. That's ludicrous.

[_Albion]

I do not, of course, make such an assumption, but I do believe that the adversary is quite capable of protecting and fostering his own. I believe him to be quite capable of establishing those whose trust is in a counterfeit Christ and a counterfeit gospel. 2 Cor. 11:4 clearly demonstrates that there is a different spirit at large. Verses 13-15 underlines it.

[_Tobin]

I do not, of course, make such an assumption, but I do believe that the adversary is quite capable of protecting and fostering his own. I believe him to be quite capable of establishing those whose trust is in a counterfeit Christ and a counterfeit gospel. 2 Cor. 11:4 clearly demonstrates that there is a different spirit at large. Verses 13-15 underlines it.

Uh huh. In your version and distortion of the scriptures, those that innocently and honestly seek the Lord are instead lead by the Devil (pretending to be God) because why?

a) God is asleep at the switch.
b) God doesn't exist.
c) God is less powerful.

How do you explain such an occurrence then? Is God omnipotent or impotent Albion?

[_Albion]

Well, Tobin, the scriptures have plenty to say about the dangers of being deceived by false ideologies and doctrine...what exactly does that have to do with God's existence, his power or his attention. You have never seen any criticism from me of the honest desire of Mormons seeking the Lord...I know many Mormons who I respect very much for their genuine desire to know God and do his will. However, innocence, honesty and genuine desire are not really what I am talking about. Would you have asked your questions of Paul when he wrote: "Brothers, my hearts desire and prayer to God for the Israelites (Mormons) is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is is not based on knowledge." Romans 10:1-2 NIV

So, it is clear that people can have an innocent and honest desire to know God and yet because their foundation is false they continue on their path trusting false premises to produce truthful answers. I'm not sure the two are compatible. Can a person who prays in the name of a false Christ expect to receive a truthful answer, no matter their honest desire, from anyone except the creator of that false Christ? I acknowledge that you don't accept that you have a false Christ but in principle can living water come through a poisoned source?

[_Tobin]

Well, Tobin, the scriptures have plenty to say about the dangers of being deceived by false ideologies and doctrine...what exactly does that have to do with God's existence, his power or his attention. You have never seen any criticism from me of the honest desire of Mormons seeking the Lord...I know many Mormons who I respect very much for their genuine desire to know God and do his will. However, innocence, honesty and genuine desire are not really what I am talking about. Would you have asked your questions of Paul when he wrote: "Brothers, my hearts desire and prayer to God for the Israelites (Mormons) is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is is not based on knowledge." Romans 10:1-2 NIV

So, it is clear that people can have an innocent and honest desire to know God and yet because their foundation is false they continue on their path trusting false premises to produce truthful answers. I'm not sure the two are compatible. Can a person who prays in the name of a false Christ expect to receive a truthful answer, no matter their honest desire, from anyone except the creator of that false Christ? I acknowledge that you don't accept that you have a false Christ but in principle can living water come through a poisoned source?

I think we have a completely different view of God. I view God as being powerful enough to answer us directly and am unconcerned about the Devil magically fooling me in disguise everytime I seek the Lord. And certainly the Devil can appear as an angel of light. However, if we were unable to tell the difference, then God would not allow it. In my view, God is and will always be more powerful than the Devil and it is he who I worship and follow.

[_Franktalk]

Watcher,

I can not speak of the past four generations just today. I will have to look up your reference to four generations. That is interesting.

[Guest]

Conclusion to historical secret #1 has to do with section 110, the Kirtland Temple and the fact that Joseph and Oliver shared a secret that they never never mentioned in public.

This should be a huge red flag to those who are studying the history of the church.

It is an extremely curious historical fact that is virtually never discussed in church manuals and sermons.

I am now going to briefly itemize why I believe God commanded Joseph and Oliver to keep this event a secret.

1- Because it represented not only a blessing but also a cursing that was being put upon the latter days saints.

2- Because God was downgrading the saints to a lesser gospel dispensation. He was ushering in a preparatory gospel from the ancient dispensation of Abraham because the saints had rejected the fulness of the gospel and could not usher in the dispensation of the fulness of times.. According to Isaiah, he did not want to disclose what he was doing because the saints were "obstinate".

3- Because God had cryptically embedded into the content contained in section 110, information revealing that Joseph Smith had committed "treachery" against the wife of his youth and the wife of the covenant.

It appears to me that God secretly revealed this inside information to Cowdery and this is why Cowdery became critical of the affair that Joseph had with Fanny Alger.

The Lord revealed this to Oliver in two ways.

One was a vision concerning Joseph Smith's destiny and the other was by revealing to Oliver additional information concerning the prophecies of Malachi pertaining to Joseph Smith.

Despite Cowdery's public criticism of Smith, the Lord had commanded Cowdery to not disclose the prophetic fulfillment of what Smith had done. This is why Cowdery left the church as a believer and was planning to rejoin the church after Smith died.

I realize this will seem extremely speculative to most people. For those wanting documentation pertaining to the above suppositions please click on the link below.

http://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/2 ... rs-secret/

Obviously, interpretation of the scriptures is to be done by revelation and is a personal thing.

I'll be back within a week to post historical secret #2

[_Albion]

Tobin, I am not sure you are understanding my point...it wouldn't be the first time...but I will let you go on this topic in the hope that you did at least give it some thought before you dismissed it. I think we might agree that there are various spirits, even false or "familiar" spirits as scripture explains it, that would lead us away from God's truth so it is important to be sure that we are being led by the right one.

[_Franktalk]

Tobin, I am not sure you are understanding my point...it wouldn't be the first time...but I will let you go on this topic in the hope that you did at least give it some thought before you dismissed it. I think we might agree that there are various spirits, even false or "familiar" spirits as scripture explains it, that would lead us away from God's truth so it is important to be sure that we are being led by the right one.

It is very important to be led by the right one. If the spirit that guides you transforms you and you can start to love all spirit children then you are on the right track and are listening to the correct spirit. Also the correct Spirit would profess that Jesus came in the flesh and died for our sins. An easy test that John tells us all about. I am sure that Tobin knows a good spirit from a bad one. I for one would trust his discernment.

[_Albion]

Franktalk, some questions. Do the ends sometimes justify the means....by which I ask whether or not you feel that the adversary would allow some good to be done so that his ultimate goal of leading souls to eternal destruction might be accomplished?

Scripture tells us that one of the purposes of the Holy Spirit is to lead believers into all truth. Jesus himself said: "But when the helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of me." John 15:26. If a person testifies to a Jesus other than the one in scripture, defines that Jesus as something different from the one revealed in scripture, would that witness by through the Holy Spirit or some other spirit.

Does the Holy Spirit witness seemingly contradictory "truths" to different people?