Exploring the Secret History of the Church

[_Fusion]

Hi Watcher,

I'm delighted to have come here and be part of this conversation. I look forward to the wonderful digging around of stuff that you do, and look forward to the Holy Spirit telling me what is true and what isn't. Have enjoyed reading what is here thus far, and thirsting for more.

I appreciate the comments of the others on here who rely on the Spirit, and surrender to the Spirit and to no one else. If I didn't believe, I wouldn't waste my time here- the world has so much for us to do! However, the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ revealed through Joseph (and him alone, I'm sorry to say) is something I just knew I would be given since my earliest memory. The Word of God is immensely essential to my existence and my utter joy, and I am so grateful to have learned through the Spirit, those things that have awoken me from my slumber the last 2-3 years. I look forward to more!

Fusion

[_Franktalk]

Hi Fusion,

It should be interesting.

[_sleepyhead]

Hi Watcher,

I'm delighted to have come here and be part of this conversation. I look forward to the wonderful digging around of stuff that you do, and look forward to the Holy Spirit telling me what is true and what isn't. Have enjoyed reading what is here thus far, and thirsting for more.

I appreciate the comments of the others on here who rely on the Spirit, and surrender to the Spirit and to no one else. If I didn't believe, I wouldn't waste my time here- the world has so much for us to do! However, the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ revealed through Joseph (and him alone, I'm sorry to say) is something I just knew I would be given since my earliest memory. The Word of God is immensely essential to my existence and my utter joy, and I am so grateful to have learned through the Spirit, those things that have awoken me from my slumber the last 2-3 years. I look forward to more!

Fusion

Hello Franktalk and Fusion,

I was wondering what you believe the Spirits agenda is. What I'm trying to get at is what type of questions do you believe the Spirit will answer. Will he tell you what stocks to buy? If you asked about bigfoot would he/it respond? How about how many people saw BY as Joseph Smith? Is the Spirit good for archeology in the sense of telling us who lived in America?

[_Fusion]

Hi Sleepyhead,

I feel the answer is somewhat like this- if you want to get the answers to questions that, from what we know, a few people have gotten, for example Enoch or the Bro of Jared- men who sacrificed a lot to get the revelations they got about ALL things, then I add my 2 cents to I paraphrase Watcher here: if one thinks they have sacrificed a lot, they might need to reevaluate themselves a number of times. It takes a lot of digging, a lot of faith to keep on digging after finding layers and layers of soil, sand, gravel and rocks, before finding a serious quantity of ores. The precious ores are even more difficult. And the, to really find the diamonds...its a very difficult thing to do for just one man or woman. I believe truth is like that- there are billions of questions about truths of billions of varied topics, if not more. But the real question is, what is important to YOU and what are you gonna do to get to that level of truth finding that Enoch and Bro of Jared did? Are you gonna do what they did? All that they did? I read the Book of Adam and Eve (available online) and it broken me down to see what they did (supposedly, if one takes that account to be true) to repent when they left the Garden of Eden. I rang a buddy of mine, a sincere truthseeker such as myself, and he read it too. We were so humbled at what those two (possibly) went through. I exclaimed that we are such an arrogant people to think we are a 'chosen generation'. Gimme a break! We (or at least, I) couldn't even carry Adam's jockstrap. Or apron...

So, what do I think the Spirit's agenda is? Well, I believe the Spirit tells me stuff on a need-to-know basis, mostly at my level of sincerity and personal sanctification. In 'The Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith' book, I believe there is a section where he says something to the effect of 'not every question is worthy of a revelation. Wisdom and common sense is there for that. Revelation is there for those things that the Spirit inspires us to seek, which is pertinent to the Gospel.' Or something like that.

I must say that the older I get the more weight I give solemn things. I don't mock anything to do with the Lord. When I think of the ridiculous, sheer uncountable number of things He has created and that I HAVEN'T- universes, galaxies, stars, people, planets, plants, insects...bacteria on all the above (where applicable)- I am in no place to be anything but is awe of His love for forgettable me.

Go ahead, take what you can from my kinda offbeat answer :)

Fusion

[_Watcher]

Ok.. today I am going to post secret history topic #2.

But first I want to point out that the reason I am presenting these events pertaining to the LDS restoration movement is that in my opinion, they lead to the truth about what really took place during the 14 year public ministry of the prophet Joseph Smith.

Although they appear to be faith challenging at face value, they can really be faith promoting once the full context is revealed.

Many church leaders encourage members of the church that are having a "crisis of faith" over faith challenging events that took place in church history, to put their concerns on a "shelf" and not worry about them right now.

I disagree with that advise.

I think it is very dangerous advise to be giving or receiving.

Anytime a church authority tells you to just shelf a concern, it means they either don't have the answer you are looking for, which is a big red flag, or they don't want you to find the answer to the question you are looking for, which is another big red flag.

My motto is "question authority".

The reason I question authority is because the leaders of organizations are human, and humans are fallible. The other thing I have noticed is that over time, people of questionable motives and ethics seem rise to the top of organizations. I don't know why but it just happens. I think it is because the pure in heart don't lust for fame, glory and power in the eyes of people while those of questionable motives do. Even in religious organizations.

With regard to difficult historical and doctrinal issues, I think the smartest thing a person can do is to fearlessly attack the issue with full purpose of heart, doing investigative research while prayerfully seeking to fully understanding the issue, why it took place and what truths it reveals about the historical figures, associated doctrines and the gospel.

I have personally come to the conclusion that every controversial and disruptive historical event offers hidden treasures of knowledge that will provide another missing piece of the puzzle that we have been sent to earth to put together.

I thought this particular chat board would be an interesting platform to do this series because I am assuming that many of the people that argue with each other on this board represent one of two ends of the spectrum in their beliefs.

One group firmly believes that Joseph Smith was a true prophet.

The other group firmly believes that Joseph Smith was a liar and a deceiver.

The majority of the people in the group of believers assumes that the modern corporate church must be true if Joseph was a true prophet and they do whatever they can to defend the church despite some of the controversial things that happened during the ministry of Joseph Smith. These people have taken these difficult questions and put them on the shelf... but the shelf continues to get heavier all the time. Unfortunately, the shelve eventually breaks for some of these people and they loose they faith in God.

If these people in the first group of believers are people of integrity, they must have some doubts deep down because of the things that are on their shelf of unanswered questions.

The second group of skeptics that have written Joseph Smith off as a liar and deceiver actually has a shelf of their own even though they probably won't admit it.

There are many things about the life of Joseph Smith, the amazing group of people that were drawn to his message, the honorable people that testified of otherworldly visions they experienced, the scriptures he brought forth and the church he restored, that simply cannot be written off as the crafty deceptions of a con man.

Those with integrity among this group of skeptics also have doubts about the conclusions they have reached. The doubts are probably why they can't leave Mormonism alone and move on with their lives.

I believe that some of the things I am going to present in this series can be helpful in either making a persons shelf heavier or lighter, depending on how that respond to the information I am going to provide.

I am not naïve enough to think that I am necessarily going to ultimately change anybody's mind on this chat board, I simply want to plant some seeds of information that might be useful to them when the great polarization takes place in the near future.

The world we live in is about to get real crazy and everyone is going to have to make a decision. I hope that something that is presented in this series will be helpful when that time comes.

Ultimately, when the Father does his work, there will be those that have oil in their lamps and those that will have to go into the city where people "buy and sell".

My hope, dear reader, is that you have oil.

[_SteelHead]

Here is the original revelation that later became D&C 137:

“(VERSE 1) The heavens were opened upon us and I beheld the celestial Kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell,- (VERSE 2) I saw the [transcendent] beauty of the gate that enters, through which the heirs of that Kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire, (VERSE 3) also the [blazing] throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son,- (VERSE 4) I saw the beautiful streets of that Kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold- (VERSE 5) I saw father Adam, and Abraham and Michael and my father and mother, my brother Alvin that has long since slept, (VERSE 6) and [marveled] how it was that he had obtained this an inheritance [in] that Kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life, before the Lord [had] set his hand to gather Israel the <second time> and had not been baptised for the remission of sins- (VERSE 7) Thus said came the voice [of the Lord] unto me saying all who have died with[out] a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it, if they had been [permitted] to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial Kingdom of God- (VERSE 8) also all that shall die henseforth, with<out> a knowledge of it, who would have received it, with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that Kingdom, (VERSE 9) for I the Lord [will] judge all men according to their works according to the desires of their hearts- and again I also beheld the [Terrestrial] Kingdom (VERSE 10) I also beheld that all children who die before they [arrive] to the years of accountability, are saved in the celestial Kingdom of heaven-I saw the 12, apostles of the Lamb, who are now upon the earth who hold the keys of this last ministry, in foreign lands, standing together in a circle much [fatigued], with their clothes tattered and feet [swollen], with their eyes cast [downward], and Jesus [standing] in their midst, and they did not behold him, the [Savior] looked upon them and wept-I also beheld Elder McLellen in the south, standing upon a hill surrounded with a vast multitude, preaching to them, and a lame man standing before him, [supported] by his crutches, he threw them down at his word, and leaped as an [hart], by the mighty power of God. Also Eld[er] Brigham Young standing in a strange land, in the far south-west, in a desert place, upon a rock in the midst of about a dozen men of color, who, appeared hostile. He was preaching to them in their own [tongue], and the angel of God standing above his head with a drawn sword in his hand protec[t]ing him, but he did not see it,- and I finally saw the 12 in the celestial Kingdom of God,- I also beheld the redemption of Zion, and many things which the [tongue] of man, cannot [describe] in full.- Many of my brethren who received this ordinance with me, saw glorious visions also, -angels ministered unto them, as well as my self, and the power of the highest rested upon, us the house was filled with the glory of God, and we shouted Hosanah to the God and the Lamb.”

As about 1/2 of it was not included in the canonized version (thus hidden), and is demonstrably false, does it make Joseph Smith a false prophet?

[_Watcher]

For historical secret #2 I am going to address the alterations that Joseph made in the modern revelations that he brought forth.

Most of you are aware that Joseph altered many of the revelations that he originally canonized in the "Book of Commandments" in 1833, when he published them again a few years later in the first edition of the "Doctrine and Covenants" in 1835.

These changes have caused significant heartburn for a lot of people.

Some of the members and leaders of the church at the time these changes were made became confused and upset that Joseph would alter revelations from God.

David Whitmer, one of the three witnesses was very critical about Joseph changing revelations.

Lyman Wight, one of the first elders to have the heavens opened and see the FAther and the Son was also quite critical of these changes.

In addition to the general topic of altering several of the revelations, I want to hyper focus on one specific change that Joseph made to section 5 of the D&C.

The passages below were originally part of the revelation that is currently published as section five in modern editions of the LDS D&C.


“And thus, if the people of this generation harden not their hearts, I will work a REFORMATION among them, and I will put down all lyings, and deceivings, and priestcrafts, and envyings, and strifes, and idolatries, and sorceries, and all manner of iniquities, and I will establish my church, like unto the church which was taught by my disciples in the days of old.4:6

And now if this generation do harden their hearts against my word, behold I will deliver them up unto Satan, for he reigneth and hath power at this time, for he hath got great hold upon the hearts of the people of this generation: and not far from the iniquities of Sodom and Gomorrah, do they come at this time: and behold the sword of justice hangeth over their heads, and if they persist in the hardness of their hearts, the time cometh that it must fall upon them.

Behold I tell you these things even as I also told the people of the destruction of Jerusalem, and my word shall be verified at this time as it hath hitherto been verified..”

Wow.

That is some pretty harsh and ominous chastisement and warning from the Lord which took place before the church was even officially restored and legally established.

Would God really deliver his church and the entire generation of people over to Satan?

Has he ever done that in the past?

Why did Joseph Smith delete those passages of scripture out of the revelation when he republished it in 1935?

Does a prophet of God have the right to alter a revelation that God gives him?

Does a perfect God with all knowledge and foreknowledge make mistakes that need to be corrected when He gives revelations?

Did God command Joseph to make those alterations in the scriptures or did Joseph just decide he could improve on what God had said to him?

These are some things to ponder about this fascinating secret little tidbit about the LDS history of the Church.

I'll be back on a week or so to explain what I have found and why this issues has gone from a faith shaking event to a real faith promoting event in my own spiritual journey of understanding.

[_Franktalk]

Watcher,

I have studied Peter for some time now and have come to the conclusion that while he was young just about everything he did was wrong. Only when he was old did he finally leave the world. 1 Peter is actually an overreach in my view but 2 Peter was spot on. So here in my view we are to find and then ignore what Peter did while young. In your view Joseph Smith was a prophet but made errors in the beginning. The things said were to be taken as direct from God. Then as Joseph drifted from them he was to be rejected, since the word of God is primary. Then when the members still followed Joseph he went further and further away from the word and actually acted out the desires of the members. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I think God found Paul and knew he would be hot for the truth. But in Paul's case he left him with a constant reminder to keep him on track. That would be the pain in his side. I think Paul was killed a few times, or should have died yet lived. This happened until God's work was done that He wanted Paul to do. It was Paul more than anyone who laid down the scripture that could be taken in a wide range of ways. From the worldly to meat and spiritual. All prophets are different and God uses them all to direct us to God. When we ignore God's word God will raise the bar and force His prophet to live the message. Even to being wed to a harlot.

I am just about done with your work. I have found it very interesting. Some I already know to be true but most is yet to be verified by the Spirit. That may take some time, but I am no rush.

Oh by the way, in second Peter he speaks about:

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

I have always taken the scoffers to be naturalist or people who worship science. And I have always taken the "all things continue as they were" to mean uniformitarianism. Then in my studies I find that Charles Lyell made popular the term in his book on geology. His book was published Jan 1830. The Book of Mormon was published 1830.

http://www.inephi.com/1.htm

It may mean nothing or it could be a time stamp for the start of the last days.

But it does match with what he (Peter) said earlier.

2Pe 1:15 Moreover I will endeavor that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

So Peter was saying that after he was dead he would bring the "present truth" always in remembrance. And he did.

I have hundreds of pages of this stuff but most has to be reviewed and brought up to where I am now.

Like I said you have saved me so much work.

http://www.esp.org/books/lyell/principl ... itle3.html

Most people blow me off as a nut. So be it.

[_Franktalk]

Hello Franktalk and Fusion,

I was wondering what you believe the Spirits agenda is. What I'm trying to get at is what type of questions do you believe the Spirit will answer. Will he tell you what stocks to buy? If you asked about bigfoot would he/it respond? How about how many people saw BY as Joseph Smith? Is the Spirit good for archeology in the sense of telling us who lived in America?

What the Spirit tells us depends on many things. But if you wish to know if Jesus is the Son of God then most will get a very powerful yes. But most other things are less powerful and more whispers. Then some subjects are not even talked about. Then there is the fact that some will get revelation just for them and what they are doing. Then sometimes you must ask a hundred times before you get the smallest of answers. Then sometimes the Spirit will go silent. Sometimes for years. Just as a test of your faith. I think mine was over a year if I remember. But in that time I studied science and church history (early). So I was busy.

Very few get visions. I had one night vision and a manifestation. But most is discernment or a guiding of my daily life.

Most people who say they hear the Spirit do not in my opinion hear the Spirit. You must above all be open to change in a heart beat.

Not sure if this is helpful. The Spirit is a guide, it will take you to salvation. If you don't listen and do what it says then it goes one way and you go another. Then to get it back is really hard work.

[_Albion]

Franktalk, according to your Bruce McConkie, the Holy Ghost is "a personage of Spirit, he constitutes the third personage in the Trinity, the godhead..." Joseph F. Smith said: "The Holy Ghost as a personage of Spirit can no more be ominpresent in person than can the Father or the Son." So, evidently, and contrary to what the Bible teaches, the "Spirit" you refer to is not the same entity as the Holy Ghost. Can you clarify? Which person/force/entity are you referencing when you use the term "spirit"?