Dan and Bill tag-team to smear Kishkumen

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_Jason Bourne
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Re: Dan and Bill tag-team to smear Kishkumen

Post by _Jason Bourne »

MsJack wrote:I just can't take anything that they say about online viciousness and nastiness seriously when they never had any objections to paling around with William Schryver at his worst.



This! Spot on. Put Pahoran in that camp too. When Dan and crew calls off those attack dogs then their complaint about Kish may mean something. Kish has never stooped to their level.
_harmony
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Re: Dan and Bill tag-team to smear Kishkumen

Post by _harmony »

Jason Bourne wrote:
MsJack wrote:I just can't take anything that they say about online viciousness and nastiness seriously when they never had any objections to paling around with William Schryver at his worst.



This! Spot on. Put Pahoran in that camp too. When Dan and crew calls off those attack dogs then their complaint about Kish may mean something. Kish has never stooped to their level.


That could be because Kisk has never called the women here fat, repulsive, whores, bitches, etc. I wonder if he'd get any more kickback if he did? Probably not. Women are footballs to some people.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Dan and Bill tag-team to smear Kishkumen

Post by _Kishkumen »

harmony wrote:That could be because Kisk has never called the women here fat, repulsive, whores, bitches, etc. I wonder if he'd get any more kickback if he did? Probably not. Women are footballs to some people.


Yeah, and I would never, ever do it, so there's that.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Peppermint Patty
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Re: Dan and Bill tag-team to smear Kishkumen

Post by _Peppermint Patty »

kishkumen,

I attempted to start a thread about not bashing you over at mormondialogue.com. It was immediately taken down by the moderators without any explanation. I just wanted to go on record that all of the bashing from both boards is the main reason why I don't participate very often.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Dan and Bill tag-team to smear Kishkumen

Post by _Kishkumen »

Peppermint Patty wrote:kishkumen,

I attempted to start a thread about not bashing you over at mormondialogue.com. It was immediately taken down by the moderators without any explanation. I just wanted to go on record that all of the bashing from both boards is the main reason why I don't participate very often.


I understand, PP. Thanks for trying. I will try to do better.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_MsJack
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Re: Dan and Bill tag-team to smear Kishkumen

Post by _MsJack »

I want to comment on this, but don't want to derail the DCP appreciation thread, and this thread seems like a good place to comment. I mean for this to be a constructive and conscientious critique.

Elsewhere, Bhodi wrote:

Bhodi wrote:Those who were involved with you [Kevin Graham] during your apologist days have told me that Dan Peterson did a lot to defend you from Mormons who found your actions to be unacceptable. I don't know if you care, but he supported you when a lot of people were either uncomfortable with your style and actions or outright wanted you kicked out of Mormon apologetics, as much as such a thing can be accomplished. Dan supported you far more than you will likely ever know. For whatever that is worth.

I can totally believe this. And part of this may have been sincere concern on Dan's part for Kevin as a person, and wanting him to feel welcome and included in apologetics and Mormonism as a whole.

But I need to point out that at the time, Kevin's aggressive techniques were directed at critics. A lot of us felt that Kevin frequently came off as aggressive, mean-spirited, and rude, and we said as much, but many (not all) apologists did not seem to care, and those who did refused to show in public that they cared. It wasn't until Kevin directed his aggression towards other apologists on the FAIR e-list (c. 2003) that action was finally taken against him. I firmly believe that had Kevin come onto a message board and called a pair of female critics "cackling hens," few would have batted an eye.

It seems to be the case with Dan in particular that when critics are even mildly abrasive, he gets offended, but he'll say nothing about the worst of behavior from people he regards as co-apologists and personal friends (Pahoran, Schryver, Hamblin, etc.). Someone like Kishkumen is called out for being "vicious" and "nasty," but for Schryver to make sexist jokes about the bodies of female posters here at MDDB wasn't worth commenting on even when directly asked. And now that Kevin is no longer an apologist, everyone is quite free about expressing contempt for his behavior.

So yeah. I can totally believe that Dan defended Kevin's place in apologetics at the time. Kevin's problematic behavior was directed exclusively at critics, and Dan seems to be okay with that. Apologists really need to learn what decent online behavior looks like and speak up when they aren't seeing it in their fellow apologists. Otherwise, no one will ever take their complaints of bad behavior in critics seriously.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

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_stemelbow
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Re: Dan and Bill tag-team to smear Kishkumen

Post by _stemelbow »

For what it's worth, the first quote from Dan in the OP expresses nicely my feelings on this matter.

Kish has been pretty hostile towards certain LDS folks. His criticisms are often about the tactics he finds despicable, most often while employing those same tactics, but he also gets very personal and mean.

I personally hope more for him. Its sad to watch as he can't seem to decide whether he wants to be thoughtful or angry.
Love ya tons,
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_Kishkumen
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Re: Dan and Bill tag-team to smear Kishkumen

Post by _Kishkumen »

MsJack wrote:Apologists really need to learn what decent online behavior looks like and speak up when they aren't seeing it in their fellow apologists. Otherwise, no one will ever take their complaints of bad behavior in critics seriously.


Indeed. Well said.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Dan and Bill tag-team to smear Kishkumen

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Kish has not been hostile towards anyone.

We're talking about people who think hostility is a word that only applies to anyone who would dare voice their opinion about negative things, attributes, characteristics, of LDS apologists. It never applies to folks on their side of the fence, because when they appear hostile, its just our fault for not having a sense of humor.
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Dan and Bill tag-team to smear Kishkumen

Post by _Kevin Graham »

So yeah. I can totally believe that Dan defended Kevin's place in apologetics at the time.


I can't. He was instrumental in marginalizing me even when I was an apologist.

The thing is, Mormons will act like they really care about you if they think there is a chance you'll come back. If it seems like there is no longer a chance of that happening, well, good riddance.

A couple of years ago there was an article called "Why Don't People like Mormons?" or something to that effect. This was one of the main reasons why. Ed Ashment sent out an email responding to this article and I think he hits on several points that ring true for many of us:

A friend sent me an anonymous essay that provides an answer to why people don't like Mormons. It's an interesting read, and I found much to agree with, some to disagree with, and a little that wasn't addressed. First, here is the well-written essay, so you know what is at issue:

Agreements. It's astronomically rare that Mormons are genuine friends with non-Mormons and in many cases, even with other Mormons. After all, too much (i.e., 'eternal life') is at stake, and believing Mormons are focused on climbing up the LDS institution's version of Jacob's ladder to get into the Celestial Kingdom. When 'friendship' is extended to lapsed and to non Mormons, it's purposeful; i.e., it's to (re-)convert them. If they resist, Mormons on the ladder have no time for them. Mormon 'friendship' isn't, therefore, genuine.

The equation of Mormon fellowshipping to Amway recruitment is apt.

Mormons' testimonies about being members of the True church, while everyone else lives in various shades of darkness, result in Mormons coming across as arrogant; even though they perceive themselves as being humble followers of Christ a double-think phenomenon common to adherents of all three 'book' religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam).

Mormon missionaries can be spotted from a mile away, they do look dorky, and anyone who has experienced their humbly aggressive manner avoids them almost like the plague.

Disagreements. A universal religion, to be applicable to everyone, either must force its adherents to fit Procrustes' bed, or it must stand for nothing. Christianity, during its colorful history, has employed both approaches.

The essay's author opts for 'stand for nothing': 'Our religion is a religion of unconditional love, without judgment, for all mankind'. The apostle Paul in spades.

Hmph. Life has taught virtually everyone that 'If you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas'. Accordingly, I won't lie down with dogs. I won't consort with the likes of Ted Bundy, Mark Hoffman, the Lafferty brothers, politicians, &c. I won't love them unconditionally, without judgement. That's a job for their parents and their parents' god(s).

They're evil men who have made their beds and can sleep in them. I choose to consort with upstanding people who are curious about life, the world, and the universe. ('Birds of a feather flock together.') I certainly judge/discriminate.

I love my own offspring more than I love the offspring of others, and I love my kin's offspring more than I love the offspring of someone who lives, say, in the heart of Africa. My love is therefore conditional.

Mormons have every right in the world to choose and discriminate every bit as much as the essayist, who, ironically, finds Mormons lacking (i.e., judges them) for not being universalists. I applaud Mormons for taking stands. But they can't have it all: they can't take a controversial stand and rue the fact that others don't like them for it. They have to have the sand/grit/mettle to face the consequences of their decisions, as the Amish do. Mormons are a bit too fixated on 'the World' not to be 'of' it.


Omissions. Mormonism encourages a one-track mind; accordingly, as mentioned, Mormons are obsessed with climbing the Church's version of Jacob's ladder. Convinced and determined to remain convinced that they are possessed of the Truth, Mormons are unable to discuss differences of opinion about life's big issues; rather, they can only proclaim institutionally-approved dogma. For, as long as they're aware of only their tradition, they're safely on the ladder; but once they learn details about conflicting Truths from other traditions, their own Truth can be reduced to being merely one among many, which can raise doubts in their minds. (See Hammer, Claiming Knowledge [Brill 2001], 493.) Bigoted Mormons are a natural result.

In a related vein, Mormons are inveterate and compulsive navel gazers. Rarely do they investigate anything with the gusto they devote to Mormonism. Accordingly, unless they're monologuing about the Truth (or sometimes, the falsity) of Mormonism, conversations with Mormons generally are shallow and short. Mormons are boring.

The Big Question. How are Mormons, thus described, any different from committed Baptists, left and right wing political idealogues, &c.?
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