Albion wrote:Franktalk, according to your Bruce McConkie, the Holy Ghost is "a personage of Spirit, he constitutes the third personage in the Trinity, the godhead..." Joseph F. Smith said: "The Holy Ghost as a personage of Spirit can no more be ominpresent in person than can the Father or the Son." So, evidently, and contrary to what the Bible teaches, the "Spirit" you refer to is not the same entity as the Holy Ghost. Can you clarify? Which person/force/entity are you referencing when you use the term "spirit"?
The Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead (see 1 John 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a “personage of Spirit” (D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place at a time, but His influence can be everywhere at the same time.
“When a man has the manifestation from the Holy Ghost, it leaves an indelible impression on his soul, one that is not easily erased. It is Spirit speaking to spirit, and it comes with convincing force. A manifestation of an angel, or even of the Son of God himself, would impress the eye and mind, and eventually become dimmed, but the impressions of the Holy Ghost sink deeper into the soul and are more difficult to erase” (Answers to Gospel Questions, comp. Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., 5 vols. [1957–66], 2:151).
The Gift of the Holy Ghost •What is the difference between the Holy Ghost and the gift of the Holy Ghost? The gift of the Holy Ghost is the privilege—given to people who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ, been baptized, and been confirmed as members of the Church—to receive continual guidance and inspiration from the Holy Ghost.
Joseph Smith said we believe in the gift of the Holy Ghost being enjoyed now as much as it was enjoyed in the days of the first Apostles. We believe in this gift in all its fulness, power, greatness, and glory. (See Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 97–98.)
A person may be temporarily guided by the Holy Ghost without receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost (see D&C 130:23). However, this guidance will not be continuous unless the person is baptized and receives the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. We read in Acts 10 that the Roman soldier Cornelius received inspiration from the Holy Ghost so that he knew the gospel of Jesus Christ was true. But Cornelius did not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost until after he was baptized. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that if Cornelius had not received baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost, the Holy Ghost would have left him (see Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, 97).
The Church seems to be talking out of both sides of its mouth on this subject.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
Bazooka wrote:The Church seems to be talking out of both sides of its mouth on this subject.
A bunch of uneducated farmboys...
The 1+2+12, that is.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
Albion wrote:Franktalk, according to your Bruce McConkie, the Holy Ghost is "a personage of Spirit, he constitutes the third personage in the Trinity, the godhead..." Joseph F. Smith said: "The Holy Ghost as a personage of Spirit can no more be ominpresent in person than can the Father or the Son." So, evidently, and contrary to what the Bible teaches, the "Spirit" you refer to is not the same entity as the Holy Ghost. Can you clarify? Which person/force/entity are you referencing when you use the term "spirit"?
I can only relate my personal experience. The Holy Ghost has not informed me of any details about the workings of the Holy Ghost. What others says in that regard is not important to me. What is important is the experience. I will tell you that the Spirit was strong in me before becoming a member of the LDS church and it has not increased or decreased. I was guided to become a member for some reason which I do not know. I did go to many other churches before the LDS church but held off being Baptized until I came to the LDS church. Again being led is being led so the reasoning I may or may not know. But I do know the Priesthood was reestablished to some degree. I also feel strongly that the Book of Mormon relates to events that actually took place in the Americas.
I do not get too wrapped up with what leaders of the church write about. We are all weak, why would I take guidance from a man when I have a more direct path to God?
Bazooka wrote:The Church seems to be talking out of both sides of its mouth on this subject.
Since the Holy Spirit is unique to each of us it would be impossible to describe the experience in any meaningful way in general terms. The church in its attempt to describe the experience and go into detail sets itself up to not match what some will experience. It is like describing the wind in a narrow canyon and then experiencing the wind on the open sea. Two very different experiences yet the same wind.
In their attempt to clarify they may have in fact muddied the waters.
I think you meant to write 1+2=12 But the message was clear none the less. I see scripture this same way. Sometimes the actual words get in the way of the message that God is trying to tell me. Maybe farm boys are the best tools for God to use. They would not be set in their ways like the programmed droids that come out of college. I respect the material being taught in places of higher learning but do not respect the propaganda. Of course you may see religion as the ultimate programming of the human mind. And from a casual observer's view that would be correct. But to some of us the unseen involvement of God makes all of the difference in the world.
Which, Franktalk, brings "believers" back to three posibilities. 1. The Holy Spirit gives different answers to different people. You he tells Mormonism is true, me he tells it is false. 2. One of us is misinterpreting what they are being told. 3. One or the other is listening to a false spirit. Which do you think?
Albion wrote:Which, Franktalk, brings "believers" back to three posibilities. 1. The Holy Spirit gives different answers to different people. You he tells Mormonism is true, me he tells it is false. 2. One of us is misinterpreting what they are being told. 3. One or the other is listening to a false spirit. Which do you think?
I think the small voice gives us small messages. It is our own ego which reads more into the message. I have overreached before and will do it again. But in time if I am open the true comes out and I have to correct myself. As for others they are on their own. I only know what is being revealed to me.
I think most of the problems come in when the Holy Spirit makes you feel something is true without giving detail. Like telling us that Jesus is the Son of the Father. But then we go off and assume that all of our unique interpretation of scripture is correct. That would be an overreach. If you keep your questions to God very precise you get precise back. But if you ask a general question you get general back.
Like if you read the Book of Mormon and interpret it one way and ask the Holy Spirit if it is true. You may get back it is false. But it may be telling you your interpretation is false, or your feelings about it are false. Most of the conflict with the Holy Spirit and those seeking answers is self inflicted. Sometimes when I have a problem with a part of scripture I ask the Holy Ghost to clear my mind and allow me to read the actual message. I may have to do this a dozen times before it gets through my thick head what the message actually is. Then I see the words and can't believe I could not see it before.
It is hard work at times. At other times it is easy. I do not set the pace. I also don't set the content. There are many areas of scripture I have no clue about. But I accept that it is not time to know. When I meet a wall in scripture I just move along to a new subject. I have found that if you force an answer it will be wrong.
Franktalk wrote:I think most of the problems come in when the Holy Spirit makes you feel something is true without giving detail.
Now here's the difficulty. How do you KNOW it's the Holy Spirit making you feel something?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
So, if I understand you correctly you are saying in essence that anyone who does not get the answers you get is either not doing it right or they not properly understanding the response as you would understand it. The Bible tells us that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth, truth being, I believe, Jesus and all that is revealed within its pages about him as a full and complete revelation of God. The test of revealed truth is how it measures up against God's word as it has been revealed. What other test can there be? If the glove doesn't fit.........I think you know the rest.
Albion wrote:Which, Franktalk, brings "believers" back to three posibilities. 1. The Holy Spirit gives different answers to different people. You he tells Mormonism is true, me he tells it is false. 2. One of us is misinterpreting what they are being told. 3. One or the other is listening to a false spirit. Which do you think?
Hello albion,
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