The path to overcoming as defined by Paul in Romans

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_Franktalk
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Re: The path to overcoming as defined by Paul in Romans

Post by _Franktalk »

Albion wrote:Franktalk, I am sorry that you cannot, or will not, answer the simple questions I posed. Not a very good start for you, is it? You invite questions and then refuse to respond to legitimate ones I have raised. You can ignore awkward verse that don't fit your theories but they stand as part of God's word none the less.


Once you understand punishment and being saved as different than overcoming then you will understand and not before. I pray for you that it is soon.
_Tobin
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Re: The path to overcoming as defined by Paul in Romans

Post by _Tobin »

Franktalk,

I think you might have more success with Albion if you just assume he has a distorted view of the scriptures, God, and Mormonism in general. For some reason he believes Mormons do not understand that goodness (in essence our best impulses) come from God. However, what he fails to address or understand is we must CHOOSE to seek and follow those impulses (a.k.a. God) and do as he asks. He also fails to understand that Mormons are concerned about being good and doing as God asks more than just simply claiming they are saved because IF you are saved, you need to do as God asks (otherwise you really aren't).

Anyway as you noticed and correctly responded, he has repeatedly and annoyingly stated that we RECEIVE the FREE GIFT of righteousness from God. However, he fails again to acknowledge that God and seek him and do as he asks. If he did, he would be Mormon and be seeking to do all things the Lord commands.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Franktalk
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Re: The path to overcoming as defined by Paul in Romans

Post by _Franktalk »

Tobin,

The path that Paul lays out is the path that He (Jesus) followed, He is "the way" to escape this world and the bondage of death. We must become as He was and we must do the will of the Father. But it can't be done for reward. It must be done because you have written the commandments of God on your heart. Over time we realize that truth and love are of God and the things of this world are vapor and are meaningless. As Christ by example showed us the path and carried His cross we also must be an example and carry our own cross. We must overcome the world in order to escape the world. The simple notion of judgement at the end of our life has been distorted. Since we are eternal spirits then what is life that Christ talked about?

In the Book of Revelation Christ talks about seven churches. All of the churches were filled with believers yet He talks about how most have not overcome. And those who have not overcome were to be blotted out of the Book of life and were destined for tribulation. The realm of death is the realm of the flesh. If you think of your self as flesh then death is a sting and is a powerful experience. But if you have rejected this world and embraced the truth of who we are as spirits then death loses its sting and death has no power over us. So exactly what is life? Life is eternal life without death. To have a body of flesh that does not die. But if we do not progress to life then we are thrown back to death. But death is here on the earth. This idea is rejected by most. But once embraced it makes the Old Testament clear. Where many see the God of the Old Testament as cruel I see God as caring not about death of the flesh but instead guiding spirits to learn to love. Knowing that each probation on earth is but an attempt to grow towards the walk towards God. The potter reshapes into a new vessel.

As the rest of Romans is laid out it may become clear what the bondage of death actually means.

I came to this understanding over a long time using the New Testament. But this understanding has been around a long time. But has been cast off. It is a shame what has happened. Quite by accident I ran into the following:

".....I never expect that day. It is just so with a great many, when they come here, they suppose that everything is going to be prepared for them; they suppose that they will sit down in ease, and eat, and drink, and wear, and that there will be no person to trouble them. We have come here to become inured to work—to build temples, and improve upon the elements that God has placed around us, that we may become more skillful tomorrow, through the experience of today. What I do not today, when the sun goes down, I lay down to sleep, which is typical of death; and in the morning I rise and commence my work where I left it yesterday. That course is typical of the probations we take. But suppose that I do not improve my time today, I wake up tomorrow and find myself in the rear; and then, if I do not improve upon that day, and again lay down to sleep, on awaking, I find myself still in the rear. This day's work is typical of this probation, and the sleep of every night is typical of death, and rising in the morning is typical of the resurrection. They are days' labors, and it is for us to be faithful today, tomorrow, and everyday."

A Discourse by President Heber C. Kimball, Delivered in the Bowery, Great Salt Lake City, May 31, 1857.
Reported by G. D. Watt.

http://jod.mrm.org/4/328

This teaching is rejected by modern leaders. But a careful look at the bondage of death brings us to the same conclusions. I think that Paul makes this case.
_Bazooka
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Re: The path to overcoming as defined by Paul in Romans

Post by _Bazooka »

I haven't got any specific thoughts or comments to share at this point.
Except to say this thread seems to be discussing Frantalks interpretation of Paul's interpretation of one aspect of Christianity.
(Which I don't say as a criticism, merely an observation of the dynamic of the thread)

But I thought this from Paul's wikipedia page was interesting.
{Paul's} Basic message
E.P. Sanders finds three major emphases in Paul's writings:[7]
His strongest emphasis was on the death, resurrection, and lordship of Jesus Christ. He preached that one's faith in Jesus assures that person a share in Jesus' life (salvation). He saw Jesus' death as being for the believers' benefit, not a defeat. Jesus died so that believers' sins will be purged.
The resurrection of Jesus was of primary importance to Paul as may be seen in his first letter to the Thessalonians[1 Thes. 1:9-10] which is the earliest surviving account of conversion to the Christian movement.
The resurrection brought the promise of salvation to believers. Paul taught that those who died in Christ would be raised when Christ returned, while those still alive would be "caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air".[1 Thes. 4:14-18]
Sanders concludes that Paul's writings reveal what he calls the essence of the Christian message:
God sent his Son.
The Son was crucified for the benefit of humanity.
After being dead three days, the Son was raised from the dead defeating death.
The Son would soon return.
Those who belonged to the Son would live with him forever.
Followers are to live by the highest moral standard—"May your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ".[1 Thes. 5:23]
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_Albion
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Re: The path to overcoming as defined by Paul in Romans

Post by _Albion »

Bazooka, I have no problem with the quote you present. I think it a fair description of Paul's intent. Wiki is not my usual source for information but if you will refer to it on the specific subject of Romans you will find the following included in a lengthy article:

"The sum and whole cause of the writing of this epistle (Romans) is to prove that a man is justified by faith only, which proposition whoso denieth, to him not only the epistle but...also the whole scripture, so locked up that he shall never understand it to his soul's health, and to bring a man to the understanding and feeling that faith only justifieth, Paul proves that the whole nature of man is so poisoned and so corrupt, yea and so dead concerning godly living or godly thinking that it is impossible for him to keep the law in the sight of God." Tyndale

In attacking my position on Romans, Franktalk, and now Tobin, are attacking the accepted Christian position on this epistle. Of course, since Mormonism itself is an attack on the Christian position their stance does not surprise me in any way.
_Albion
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Re: The path to overcoming as defined by Paul in Romans

Post by _Albion »

Tobin wrote:Franktalk,

I think you might have more success with Albion if you just assume he has a distorted view of the scriptures, God, and Mormonism in general. For some reason he believes Mormons do not understand that goodness (in essence our best impulses) come from God. However, what he fails to address or understand is we must CHOOSE to seek and follow those impulses (a.k.a. God) and do as he asks. He also fails to understand that Mormons are concerned about being good and doing as God asks more than just simply claiming they are saved because IF you are saved, you need to do as God asks (otherwise you really aren't).

Anyway as you noticed and correctly responded, he has repeatedly and annoyingly stated that we RECEIVE the FREE GIFT of righteousness from God. However, he fails again to acknowledge that God and seek him and do as he asks. If he did, he would be Mormon and be seeking to do all things the Lord commands.


The distorted view of the scriptures you charge me with is the accepted view of Christianity. Obviously, from your perspective they are all out of step except the Mormons.

With regard to your last sentence in your first paragraph. I couldn't agree more with the premise that one's life lived in obedience to God is the demonstration of what has really taken place in the heart of the believer. However, there is a deeper inference in your statement so I would refer you to my comment to Franktalk above, I think my first response in this thread, with reference to this false and "hackneyed" charge.
_Albion
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Re: The path to overcoming as defined by Paul in Romans

Post by _Albion »

Tobin, if the concept of God's free gift and righteousness coming from God annoys you, I suggest, perhaps, that you stop reading Paul's writings...in this case specifically those verses that Franktalk conveniently left out of his explanation of Chapter 1.
_SteelHead
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Re: The path to overcoming as defined by Paul in Romans

Post by _SteelHead »

I like watching the Bible brigade consume one another about the meaning of the Bible. It is such a clear document.....
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_Franktalk
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Re: The path to overcoming as defined by Paul in Romans

Post by _Franktalk »

Albion wrote:
The distorted view of the scriptures you charge me with is the accepted view of Christianity. Obviously, from your perspective they are all out of step except the Mormons.


The official position of the church is in opposition to what I believe Paul teaches in Romans. It is my position that eternal life and breaking the bonds of death requires several steps. First is the recognition that there is a God. The second is an act of faith where one starts to seek God to know Him. The third is when the Holy Spirit enters us and speaks to our spirit. The forth is when we actually start to act as a believer. The fifth is when we go through Baptism where we separate into two parts, one being the carnal mind of the flesh and the other being a spiritual creature. The sixth is when we walk in the spirit and leave the carnal mind behind. The seventh is when we learn that truth is following the will of the Father. The eighth is when we actually start to move towards doing the will of the Father. The ninth is when we are tested by tribulation (baptism by fire), the Spirit of Christ enters us to help us overcome. The tenth is when we no longer see tribulation as tribulation but an opportunity to glorify God by our acts.

All of these steps are in Romans 1 - 9. But included in Paul's writings are his words to support this path. He uses the history of the Jews and the Law as a foundation. Many don't see the thread of steps. I am pointing them out as each chapter goes by. It seems you wish to follow what everyone else thinks. So you are the many and not the few.
_Franktalk
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Re: The path to overcoming as defined by Paul in Romans

Post by _Franktalk »

SteelHead wrote:I like watching the Bible brigade consume one another about the meaning of the Bible. It is such a clear document.....


It is my belief that only at the end of our journey will the scriptures be clear. But until then it is a struggle to get from one step to the next. So what you witness is a struggle of the faithful and in no way reflects on the clarity of the inspired word of God. It is our weakness that causes what you see.
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