Albion wrote:Tobin, if the concept of God's free gift and righteousness coming from God annoys you, I suggest, perhaps, that you stop reading Paul's writings...in this case specifically those verses that Franktalk conveniently left out of his explanation of Chapter 1.
The free gift that we receive is not free. We must have faith and we must repent of our sins. Then we avoid punishment if we are forgiven. That is a small part of our path.
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
If we accept it the love of God will manifest in us by the Holy Ghost. Notice that verse 3 says that we glory in tribulations. Just how many of us glory in our tribulations? Is this a measure of faith? In verse 2 it states that we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand. But verse 3 says not only grace but also glory in tribulation. Paul goes on to say that the tribulation worketh patience. It is the experience of the tribulations that will lead to hope. So after all of the work is done we should not be ashamed. For if we do the work and acquire the experience we can stand before God and not be ashamed.
1Jo 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
So faith is the starting point. Then holding on to our faith we can be perfect only when we experience tribulation and glory in it instead of falling. As we experience this over and over we develop strength in our faith and that leads to hope that we have made our self ready for Christ at his coming.
In 1john 2:28 the confidence is something that we have developed by experience. Experience in abiding in Him. To follow Christ is something we do. We must experience the following of the commandments. We must experience the successful handling of tribulation. There are some who believe that Jesus does all and we do nothing but believe on Him. They use Christ as a crutch and limit their own behavior. They say that Christ paid for all my sins and faith is all that is required. Those who hold this view will know in their own hearts that they could have done more and worked at gaining experience by abiding in Christ or walking as Christ walked. They will be ashamed to stand before Jesus at His coming.
Romans 5
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Here Paul is contrasting the world before the law and how sin was not imputed. It says that sin was in the world but it was not counted for sin. This is because man did not know what sin was. Only through the law was sin imputed to those who knew better. Now that the gospel is preached throughout the world man is without excuse. Somehow this is different than the knowledge of good and evil. This needs to make sense so some explanation is required about how sin is imputed. I will delay that explanation until more foundation is laid.
In verse 10 we have a contrast in the death of Christ verses His being alive. In His death we find the spiritual power of forgiveness for the world. But in His life there is much more. So by the death of Christ we obtain forgiveness by His sacrifice. But to continue in sin over and over is not perfection. Only through the live Christ can we obtain the next step. Paul goes on to describe how we can obtain the live Christ in us.
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
This is the question is it not? How can we sin after we know the grace of God? Our spirit is born and the flesh is dead but we still live as a spirit in this house of flesh and we are exposed to all manner of temptation. So how can we be perfect in spirit yet the body knows nothing but sin?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
The newness of life is our born spirit. The old man which was our body of sin was crucified with Christ. So the new clean body that came from the water of Baptism still has to navigate this world and be tempted with the lust of the flesh. Our carnal mind can still be tempted by the wisdom of the world. Jesus after His Baptism went into the desert to be tempted for 40 days. After our own Baptism we are tempted as well by the world. We have to glory in the temptation and reject the world. If we do not then we have embraced the world that leads to sin and death.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Paul is speaking of Christ. That He being raised from the dead dieth no more. So if we are doing the things that Christ did we can expect the same. We would die no more. It implies that Christ lived other lives in the flesh. But this life is different, Jesus dieth no more and that death had no more dominion over Him. It is my belief that the dominion of death describes a cycle of death on the earth. We live and are bound to death which means we come back into the flesh again to experience death again and again. Something must happen to break free from this bondage of death. Jesus showed us the way out. Now those who lived before the law were all bound to death and could not break free. There may have been a few exceptions; Job, Enoch, and Abraham come to mind. Job and Abraham are described in scripture as perfect and Enoch walked with God. Perfection and walking with God seem to be required.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
We are given an opportunity to serve God and do the will of the Father. Christ liveth unto the Father. It is a choice we make just like Christ made His choice.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Paul tells us not to yield the body (members) as instruments unto sin. But to yield ourselves to God. He again is describing a choice.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Sin shall not have dominion over our spirit. That does not mean we can’t choose to sin. It means that we have a choice.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Paul makes the choice very clear. You can be a servant of the Lord or a servant of sin. It is based on what you do not what you believe. Paul clearly states you either obey sin unto death or you have obedience unto righteousness. One or the other.
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Again Paul makes it clear that the people in Rome made a choice to be a servant of the Lord. To obey is a choice based on belief and faith.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Now Paul talks about the people in Rome who have faith to faith. They have obeyed from the heart. They no longer obey sin.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
The flesh is still weak but our spirit can rule over the weak flesh. He is reminding them of days long ago when they yielded up their members to sin. He contrasts that with how they are now servants to righteousness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
Paul reminds the people in Rome that those who are servants of sin do not gather fruit. The end for those in sin is death. If you choose the world and the sin of the world then death remains bound to you. Your spirit will come back over and over until you can break the dominion of death by choosing to walk in God’s ways and rejecting the world of sin.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
So now that Paul has described their behavior as obedient and they serve the will of the Father he can now tell them that the fruit of that obedience is everlasting life. Notice that faith was the starting point but the actual change in behavior leading to obedience is what actually gets them to a point where they have everlasting life. Everlasting life is life without death. It is that simple. Those who achieve everlasting life progress into the spiritual realm of heaven. There are other sections of scripture that details this transition.
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Now Paul is telling us the same message but using different terms. The dead husband of the woman represents our dead old man which we left in the water of Baptism. So in a sense we were married to the flesh until in the act of Baptism the old man dies. This frees our spirit to marry another. If we choose to marry Christ we must obey as a wife obeys and we must love as a wife loves her husband. But we may fall from that marriage and love another. When we worship idols in any form we act as an adulteress. This is something we choose. We can abide in obedience with our husband Jesus Christ or we can follow sin.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Paul is telling us that while the old man lived we were bound to the flesh and could not leave of our own choice. And he also tells us that the sins that were committed while we were bound to the flesh could only bring forth fruit unto death. But Baptism separates out the old man and he is left in the Baptism water as we arise out. So we have a gift of a new life. Not one in which we are bound but one in which we are free to follow God. Or fall away and follow sin.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
So while Paul was young and knew not the law sin was not imputed to him. But when he knew the law then sin could drive him forth unto death. Here is the start of the understanding of punishment. Once Paul knew sin then he would be held accountable. Now there were acts in the law that could remove punishment. But none of these allowed the bonds of death to be removed. Jesus showed us the way to escape death.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
It is interesting to note that he says that sin revived. How is it that sin revived? Could he have been in sin before being born in the flesh? Where could Paul have been where he was in sin before he was born as Saul? In a prior life.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
The law given to the people was misunderstood and misapplied by the Jews. So the thing which is Holy, just and good by sin was changed into death. But the law made it possible for those who knew the law to know sin. They knew when they were doing things that they were told not to do. This knowledge of sin is the first step. Once we know we have a choice then we are held accountable. But Paul still needs to tell us how we can live without sin. The conflict within separates us into that which desires the sin of the world and our spirit which desires to do the will of the Father.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
It is a hard thing for the spirit to awaken and force the flesh to walk in the spirit in a fallen world.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Paul is describing the war between the inward man (the spirit) and the body of flesh. The body of flesh is designed around the temptations of the world. It is so easy to just let go and have the body tell us where to go as it follows after the lust of this world. It is our own inward struggle that is the last war we face before moving to heaven. Christ shows us the way but the struggle is between our soul and the flesh. Christ does not take this struggle from us. In fact He allows the struggle to start. In this He has brought contention to the world. As each of us in turn struggles against the world we fight the whole world and those around us that would lead us back to the world.
Luk 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: Luk 12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. Luk 12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
The division is the division between the world and the sin that comes from the desires of the flesh and the awakened spirit which wants to break free from the world. But we are bound to the world. It is Christ who showed us the way to break the bonds of death.
Romans 7
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The body always has the master being the world because the body is of the world. We are our spirit and we can choose our master. So when we choose our master to be God then a conflict between our body and our spirit manifest. When we are weak and let the body fall into sin which is its natural state we are to repent and get back on the path towards righteousness.
Only one comment, Franktalk. The newness of body, the new birth in Christ, does not come out of baptism. It comes out of regeneration or rebirth by the Spirit. There is nothing magical about baptismal water which in reality only makes you wet. It is purely symbolic of that which has taken place through regeneration by the Spirit signifying the burial of the old man/woman and rising to the new life. It is the public demonstration of the spiritual rebirth that has already taken place.
Albion wrote:Only one comment, Franktalk. The newness of body, the new birth in Christ, does not come out of baptism. It comes out of regeneration or rebirth by the Spirit. There is nothing magical about baptismal water which in reality only makes you wet. It is purely symbolic of that which has taken place through regeneration by the Spirit signifying the burial of the old man/woman and rising to the new life. It is the public demonstration of the spiritual rebirth that has already taken place.
I have a choice, I can follow your words or I can follow the words of Paul. Which do you think I will follow?
Albion wrote:Only one comment, Franktalk. The newness of body, the new birth in Christ, does not come out of baptism. It comes out of regeneration or rebirth by the Spirit. There is nothing magical about baptismal water which in reality only makes you wet. It is purely symbolic of that which has taken place through regeneration by the Spirit signifying the burial of the old man/woman and rising to the new life. It is the public demonstration of the spiritual rebirth that has already taken place.
Albion,
What you speak of us is the baptism by fire. The baptism by fire takes place when we pick up and carry our own cross and suffer the trials and tribulations which eventually purify our hearts. "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." The baptism by fire takes place here on the earth----the earth is in the lake of fire, the wrath of God; hence this is where the baptism by fire takes place---this is where the fire is. This baptism burns away the chaff which encases our hearts---it is what circumcises our hearts and makes them pure. As our spirit is being awakened, reborn, born of the Spirit, we begin to see our trials not as hellish, but as blessings. Following Christ's example, we too can overcome. He showed us how; He is the Way. He opened the gateway to Grace which Grace always exists, but which mankind could not find on their own.
Albion wrote:Only one comment, Franktalk. The newness of body, the new birth in Christ, does not come out of baptism. It comes out of regeneration or rebirth by the Spirit. There is nothing magical about baptismal water which in reality only makes you wet. It is purely symbolic of that which has taken place through regeneration by the Spirit signifying the burial of the old man/woman and rising to the new life. It is the public demonstration of the spiritual rebirth that has already taken place.
I have a choice, I can follow your words or I can follow the words of Paul. Which do you think I will follow?
Franktalk, surprisingly I don't want you to take my word for anything.....understanding what Paul is actually saying would be the best place to start.