The path to overcoming as defined by Paul in Romans

[_Franktalk]

Franktalk, surprisingly I don't want you to take my word for anything.....understanding what Paul is actually saying would be the best place to start.

So I ask you to do a commentary on a new thread for Romans 1 - 9. We can argue over each sentence and uncover the true meaning of what Paul is talking about. This sitting back and just saying I am wrong without your personal take on each sentence is so typical of Christianity today. Can you do this or are you resting on others just like you rest on the cross of Christ.

[_jo1952]

No, Jo, the baptism of fire takes place when the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in the believer and the believer is reborn to a new life in Christ.

Albion,

It is the Holy Spirit who leads us through the process of the baptism by fire. However, the process still takes place as a burning away of whatever encrusts our hearts; i.e., keeps us from doing God's will. We cannot see God until our hearts have been purified, which is expressed in many ways: such as being reborn; or being born of the Spirit; or becoming pure in heart; or overcoming; or having our spirit completely awakened; or loving ourselves perfectly and loving others perfectly and thus being able to love God perfectly; or personally spiritually experiencing the second coming of Christ. Baptism by fire, as the very word "fire" depicts, is a painful undertaking and only becomes easier to endure and understand the more chaff that is removed from our hearts. The more pure our heart becomes, the less consuming the fire is because there is less chaff to burn away. Until we have been purified, though, we will remain in the fire. It is here in the physical world where most of this purification process takes place. Thus it is that the unglorified earth exists within the lake of fire where the baptism by fire occurs. It is the Holy Spirit who leads and guides us through this necessary phase of our journey toward salvation and eternal life. None of this would have been possible if Christ had not shown us the way.

Shalom,

jo

[_Albion]

Well, Jo, there is an essential difference in our belief. You appear to be working your way to wards a perfection that you can never be achieved. Justification and righteousness is imputed to the believer through faith as a free gift. That doesn't mean believers are freed from obedience to God but they walk in obedience as empowered by the Holy Spirit without fear of wondering if they measure up because Christ measured up for them. That message is shot through in the Bible and especially in Paul's letter to the Romans.

[_jo1952]

Well, Jo, there is an essential difference in our belief. You appear to be working your way to wards a perfection that you can never be achieved. Justification and righteousness is imputed to the believer through faith as a free gift. That doesn't mean believers are freed from obedience to God but they walk in obedience as empowered by the Holy Spirit without fear of wondering if they measure up because Christ measured up for them. That message is shot through in the Bible and especially in Paul's letter to the Romans.

Dear Albion,

In the seven very different letters written to the seven different churches in the Book of Revelation, Christ appears to be most pleased with the church of Philadelphia. In that particular letter, there are no specific sins being addressed and no displeasures. That church is even given a promise that Christ will protect them from the hour of temptation which will come to all of the world. Still, Christ discusses overcoming, and the blessings which will be given to those who overcome.

Meanwhile, in all of the other six letters, Christ lists His displeasures due to the sins still being committed; often mentioning that He is not happy with their works. Obviously, Christ does not feel that they have measured up (to use your own words); yet they are believers who have accepted Christ. Inasmuch as these letters are written to actual churches made up of believers, I would guess that they are striving to be obedient. Not only are their works not good enough (in fact, Christ requires that their works are perfect), Christ tells them that those who do not overcome will have their lamp post removed, He will blot their names out of the book of life, and they will need to go back out. Only those who are able to overcome will be able to wear white raiment and walk with Him and will go no more out; i.e., enjoy eternal life.

Those whose names do not appear in the book of life (which would include those names of believers which Christ has blotted out) are cast [back] into the lake of fire; In other words, go back out until they HAVE overcome---aka been baptized by fire in the lake of fire where death is. Until a spirit overcomes, which is an indication that the baptism by fire has been completed, that spirit will continue in the cycle of physical death; thus remaining in the lake of fire until the work of their baptism by fire is complete. Our spirit must overcome even as Christ overcame; and it was no picnic for Him....neither is it a picnic for us. Even as the Father helped Christ to overcome, we need Christ's help to overcme. Just as Father did not do Christ's overcoming, Christ does not do our overcoming for us.

I offer that it is the work of our spirit awakening which Christ is talking about. Good works are naturally manifested as our hearts become more and more pure; but the work of the baptism by fire upon our hearts is necessary. It is the work on our heart in which trials and tribulation (fire) has the power to circumcise our heart. Through this circumcision of our heart, we learn to love and know ourselves, others, and ultimately are able to perfectly love God. We must be pure in heart to be able to see God. Our spirit must be born of the Spirit in order to be able to see God. This is what overcoming is all about.

Revelation 3:21 (KJV)(emphasis added)

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Christ does not carry our cross; we carry our own.

Matthew 10:38 (KJV)

And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24 (KJV)

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Luke 9:23 (KJV) (emphasis added)

And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Luke 14:27 (KJV) (emphasis added)

And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

May we all have the eyes and ears to see and hear and understand.

Shalom,

jo

[_Albion]

Jo, apparently you don't read what I have said over and over on this board. Righteousness/justification comes as a free gift FROM God through faith. Works, commandment keeping, living by the Spirit are powerful and important parts of the believers life....THEY DO NOT HOWEVER EARN SALVATION...THEY ARE THE DEMONSTRATION OF THE SAVING GRACE THAT HAS TAKEN PLACE IN THE REPENTANT SINNER'S LIFE. If a person's life does not reflect what they claim has taken place one would be perfectly justified in thinking that the claim of change is false.

[_Franktalk]

Jo, apparently you don't read what I have said over and over on this board. Righteousness/justification comes as a free gift FROM God through faith. Works, commandment keeping, living by the Spirit are powerful and important parts of the believers life....THEY DO NOT HOWEVER EARN SALVATION...THEY ARE THE DEMONSTRATION OF THE SAVING GRACE THAT HAS TAKEN PLACE IN THE REPENTANT SINNER'S LIFE. If a person's life does not reflect what they claim has taken place one would be perfectly justified in thinking that the claim of change is false.

Did Christ work to overcome death or was it a free gift from the Father?

[_jo1952]

Jo, apparently you don't read what I have said over and over on this board. Righteousness/justification comes as a free gift FROM God through faith. Works, commandment keeping, living by the Spirit are powerful and important parts of the believers life....THEY DO NOT HOWEVER EARN SALVATION...THEY ARE THE DEMONSTRATION OF THE SAVING GRACE THAT HAS TAKEN PLACE IN THE REPENTANT SINNER'S LIFE. If a person's life does not reflect what they claim has taken place one would be perfectly justified in thinking that the claim of change is false.

Albion,

So, irregardless of orthodox beliefs about hell and damnation being powerful weapons against a professed Christian's failing to have "their life reflect what they claim has taken place", it appears you yet believe that "Christians" who do not overcome are still willing to try to fake their way into Heaven....since their claim of change is false.

I would like to know what your thoughts are concerning WHY the necessary changes did NOT take place. For instance, did they not ever REALLY believe; thus, the Holy Spirit never indwelled them? Don't you think they at least "thought" that they believed? Was their faith false? Does God impute false faith? Why would they bother to be baptized? Were their desires to believe false? Are they faking their efforts to keep the commandments? Are they not afraid of hell and damnation in accordance with the orthodox understanding of this condition? How does the individual orthodox Christian know if he is being serious about following Christ or not? Christians DO sin. Which Christian's sin will be forgiven....only the one who is REALLY sincere as opposed to the one who thinks he is sincere but is somehow not measuring up?

When Christ was pointing out what individuals in the different churches needed to repent of, He never talked about anyone's claim about what had taken place within them as being false. That is something you came up with. Christ pointed to where believers were still missing the mark; In other words, those who did not yet comprehend (see Strong's definition of "repent"). Their spirit was not yet fully reborn. Another way to put this is that they did not understand all of what was being asked of them due to not having had enough Truth revealed to them; and so they were not yet able to do God's will. In this state we cannot see God.

Christ spoke of many things which believers needed to repent of. Never does He mention that they needed to repent of not really believing in Him. Nor does He mention that they needed to repent of claiming that the Holy Spirit had changed them when they hadn't been changed.

I would offer that what is missing from your interpretation is that you don't believe the professed Christian who does not overcome did not believe enough (which takes work), or work hard enough to have the Holy Spirit indwell them (which takes work); thus making their claims false.

How many times do you think a spirit will have their name blotted out of the book of life and be cast into the lake of fire before they do overcome and go no more out? Going "no more" out indicates that a spirit has gone out more than once. Do you believe that the lake of fire (where physical death is---which death exists in our unglorified world) is where the baptism by fire takes place?

Shalom,

jo

[_Albion]

Jo, apparently you don't read what I have said over and over on this board. Righteousness/justification comes as a free gift FROM God through faith. Works, commandment keeping, living by the Spirit are powerful and important parts of the believers life....THEY DO NOT HOWEVER EARN SALVATION...THEY ARE THE DEMONSTRATION OF THE SAVING GRACE THAT HAS TAKEN PLACE IN THE REPENTANT SINNER'S LIFE. If a person's life does not reflect what they claim has taken place one would be perfectly justified in thinking that the claim of change is false.

Albion,

So, irregardless of orthodox beliefs about hell and damnation being powerful weapons against a professed Christian's failing to have "their life reflect what they claim has taken place", it appears you yet believe that "Christians" who do not overcome are still willing to try to fake their way into Heaven....since their claim of change is false.

I would like to know what your thoughts are concerning WHY the necessary changes did NOT take place. For instance, did they not ever REALLY believe; thus, the Holy Spirit never indwelled them? Don't you think they at least "thought" that they believed? Was their faith false? Does God impute false faith? Why would they bother to be baptized? Were their desires to believe false? Are they faking their efforts to keep the commandments? Are they not afraid of hell and damnation in accordance with the orthodox understanding of this condition? How does the individual orthodox Christian know if he is being serious about following Christ or not? Christians DO sin. Which Christian's sin will be forgiven....only the one who is REALLY sincere as opposed to the one who thinks he is sincere but is somehow not measuring up?

When Christ was pointing out what individuals in the different churches needed to repent of, He never talked about anyone's claim about what had taken place within them as being false. That is something you came up with. Christ pointed to where believers were still missing the mark; In other words, those who did not yet comprehend (see Strong's definition of "repent"). Their spirit was not yet fully reborn. Another way to put this is that they did not understand all of what was being asked of them due to not having had enough Truth revealed to them; and so they were not yet able to do God's will. In this state we cannot see God.

Christ spoke of many things which believers needed to repent of. Never does He mention that they needed to repent of not really believing in Him. Nor does He mention that they needed to repent of claiming that the Holy Spirit had changed them when they hadn't been changed.

I would offer that what is missing from your interpretation is that you don't believe the professed Christian who does not overcome did not believe enough (which takes work), or work hard enough to have the Holy Spirit indwell them (which takes work); thus making their claims false.

How many times do you think a spirit will have their name blotted out of the book of life and be cast into the lake of fire before they do overcome and go no more out? Going "no more" out indicates that a spirit has gone out more than once. Do you believe that the lake of fire (where physical death is---which death exists in our unglorified world) is where the baptism by fire takes place?

Shalom

Jo, you seem to be under the impression that Christian believers think they become perfect once they profess faith in Christ. Theire perfection and assurance of salvation is fully in Christ whose righteousness and justification is imputed to them through faith in Christ as God's free gift. He is the believer's perfection. That is exactly what Paul was speaking about in the first chapter of Romans and what Franktalk conveniently left out of his "sermon". I am not perfect...and I know you are not perfect despite the fact that you, as a Mormon, are desperately working to that goal through your own efforts...trying to be gods I suspect. You can't study your way to heaven and you can't work your way to heaven. In Christ we have all truth...he and he alone is "the way, the truth and the life". I can't speak for why some profess a saving experience in Christ and yet lead lives that do not demonstrate it....sinful hypocrisy is what comes to mind. Fortunately I don't have to be the one to decided the sincerity of their claims. People come to Christ and receive salvation all the time...all manner of people with all manner of baggage...all manner of learning and some with no learning at all and all who genuinely profess faith are accepted by him and given the free gift of salvation. Just as they are...but in that moment with salvation assured they begin what often becomes a lifetime of walking in the light and emulating the example set by Christ. Some, people just like me, stumble on the way but the Spirit is there to guide and prompt us to repent and to move on. That part is indeed often a lifetime process...but they can do it in the blessed assurance that they have received God's free gift of salvation that cannot be earned no matter how long we live and no matter how many laws we keep and good works we do.

Paul clearly states in his letter to the Romans that he is writing to believers and in that first chapter categorically states that their righteous status before God is his free gift to them and that he is the one who provides their justification. He says it in Chapter 1; "For in the gospel (the good news of Christ) a righteousness FROM God is revealed, a righteousness that is BY FAITH from first to last,,," Verse 17. In chapter 3 Paul quotes the lament: "There is no one righteous, not even one, there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God." And yet there is an answer in Verses 21-24 "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness FROM God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God , and are JUSTIFIED (made just before God just as if they never sinned) FREELY by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

I think you are so caught up in the maze of Mormonism that you fail to see the simple truth that is before you...Christ loves you...he died to pay the price for your sin...everything necessary for salvation (full and complete rest in heaven with God not just resurrection) has been done by him and he offers it to you as a totally free gift. All you need do is have faith in the offer and the one who offers it. My witness is that you will never find rest...not in learning not in works or law keeping, not in anything until you rest in him.

[_Franktalk]

Albion,

If Paul wrote his letter and stopped at chapter five I would have the same understanding as you. But he goes on. Where I see that Paul adds to the understanding of grace, it seems you stop at the end of chapter five and are happy to rest on the cross of Christ, relying on grace to forgive sins on a continuous manner the rest of your life. Where there is no change in behavior and no indwelling of the Spirit of Christ.

But what does Paul say about your understanding?

Romans 6

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Our spirit is not strong enough to overcome the world and the temptations that are laid before us. So with faith alone we desire to be like Christ but we can not do it. Just like the Jews could not follow the law we can not overcome on our own. We must receive help, spiritual help to overcome the world and actually change our behavior. We must become as Christ was.

Currently in the United States there are many who declare themselves Christians and I am sure that many have faith in God. Yet that faith does not reflect in behavioral changes. The divorce rate for Christians and nonChristians are the same. The population rate in prison is the same for Christians and nonChristians. So where is the change in behavior. There is none. So what are we to do?

We must have faith to faith, a level of faith that allows for the indwelling Of Christ in us. We must replace our will with the will of Christ. Whereas Christ had the will of the Father and the Spirit of the Father in Him, we also must have the will of Christ and the Spirit of Christ in us.

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Paul states very clearly we should not serve sin. Yet we do. So what is lacking in us that we serve sin? We have faith but not enough strength to be as Christ was. When you reach this point you have become an elect if you are ready to receive the Spirit of Christ in you. But what is the outward sign that Christ indwells in you? You act as Christ would act and leave sin behind. You reach beyond Grace which saves us from punishment and seek instead to become the new man. The Holy Spirit guides us to knowledge. The Spirit of Christ guides us to behavioral changes because we take on His will.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

With the death of Christ we receive forgiveness of sins. But taking in the live Christ (Spirit of Christ) we make that last step. It is Christ who has the power over death not us. It is Christ that dies no more. Only with Him indwelling in us can we like Him break the bonds of death. Faith alone does not have the power to break the bonds of death. So even if we are elect we are still in bondage to sin and death.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Here Paul is saying that Christ died once for sin. He died for our sins. Yet in the Father He liveth. The Father that indwelled in Him was the life that allowed Christ to break free of death. Paul clearly says likewise we are to do the same but use the Spirit of Christ, the live Christ.

Those who believe in the trinity can't see this because they don't see a separation between Jesus and the Father. They stumble on scripture because of their worldly beliefs. They can't accept the clear words of Paul. They can't see the will of the Father or an indwelling of the Father as anything other than the trinity. But Paul tells us to be likewise. Likewise to what? Likewise to become a trinity some how? Or can it be that Father and Son are separate but share as we are to share the Spirit of Christ. Your stumbling on the words is due to your preconceived notions about God. You won't let the words of Paul modify your view of the Godhead so you cast off what Paul says to keep something not of God. The roadblock is your own design.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Paul goes on to make it clear what he is expecting from those who wish life, eternal life. They must give up sin.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Here Paul rejects your view of grace. To sin and live by grace is not what God wants. Just how clear does Paul have to be Albion?

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

We must obey God. But we must yield ourselves to His Spirit and His will. If we keep our pride and our control then we have lost control and the world wins and we sin.

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Here Paul is talking to those in Rome again. He is saying that they obeyed the doctrines that were taught to them and wrote them on their hearts. And in doing so they became servants of righteousness. For us to do the same we have to do what Paul has laid out as doctrine.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We must break the bonds of sin in order to break the bonds of death. Only the Spirit of Christ has the Spiritual power to allow us to overcome and break the bonds of death. Once Christ indwells in us (through Jesus Christ) can we receive the gift of eternal life.

[_jo1952]

Albion,

You still have not addressed my questions which are spurred on by Christ's teachings in the Book of Revelation. Christ's letters need to be reconciled with your beliefs at some point. I cannot see where you have incorporated these teachings into your beliefs; thus what is taught in the Revelation is being tossed aside. Either you are purposely not addressing them, or you are still blind to them and simply are not able to see them. At some time you will reach the point in your journey where you will have the eyes to see. It is okay for you to not address the letters and admit that you do not yet understand what is being taught. We are all blind (and I am including myself) to whatever Truth has not yet been revealed to us.

Here are those questions again: How many times do you think a spirit will have their name blotted out of the book of life and be cast into the lake of fire before they do overcome and go no more out? Going "no more" out indicates that a spirit has gone out more than once. Do you believe that the lake of fire (where physical death is---which death exists in our unglorified world) is where the baptism by fire takes place?

You are mistaken to assume that my beliefs are based upon being a member of the LDS Church. For instance, the official stance of the LDS Church is currently that multiple probations/reincarnation/the transmigration of souls is a false doctrine. It is the Holy Spirit who has revealed to me that multiple probations is, in fact, a True principle; it is a vehicle Father uses so that His purposes for us can be realized. One of the most clear evidences of multiple probations playing a role in the Plan of Salvation is presented in the Revelation within the letters to the seven churches.

As far as the role of works, this is something that was taught to me as a child being raised in the Lutheran church. My understanding of what exactly is included in works (i.e., beyond the physical manifestation of doing good for others) has been expanded upon the more the Holy Spirit reveals to me. In other words, the hardest work we will ever do is learn to know and love ourselves, others, and thus love God as a by-product of our spirit being born of the Spirit. To listen to an orthodox Christian today, one would think that the interpretation of the role of works in the Plan of Salvation has never been viewed in any other way than it is viewed today. Yet, through my own personal experience, I know that this is not so. As such, you are also incorrect to assume my comments and beliefs concerning works originates from my being a member of the LDS Church.

In Christ we have all truth...he and he alone is "the way, the truth and the life".

Yes, Christ has all Truth available in Him; but He never TAUGHT all that He knows. He taught only what Father wanted Him to teach....which is all that Father felt we were ready for at that time. In order to have all Truth revealed, we must be prepared to receive it; that is why God sent the Holy Spirit to us. The Holy Spirit reveals Truth to the individual spirit only WHEN that individual spirit is ready. In order to truly know Christ, we need to have more Truth revealed to us about Him and the Kingdom of God. The Bible does not contain all Truth.

Paul clearly states in his letter to the Romans that he is writing to believers and in that first chapter categorically states that their righteous status before God is his free gift to them and that he is the one who provides their justification. He says it in Chapter 1; "For in the gospel (the good news of Christ) a righteousness FROM God is revealed, a righteousness that is BY FAITH from first to last,,," Verse 17. In chapter 3 Paul quotes the lament: "There is no one righteous, not even one, there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God." And yet there is an answer in Verses 21-24 "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness FROM God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God , and are JUSTIFIED (made just before God just as if they never sinned) FREELY by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

Your beliefs about why you think believers do not overcome makes the above a lie. You can't have it both ways.

I think you are so caught up in the maze of Mormonism that you fail to see the simple truth that is before you...Christ loves you...he died to pay the price for your sin...everything necessary for salvation (full and complete rest in heaven with God not just resurrection) has been done by him and he offers it to you as a totally free gift. All you need do is have faith in the offer and the one who offers it. My witness is that you will never find rest...not in learning not in works or law keeping, not in anything until you rest in him.

Yet you also claim that we must keep His commandments, etc. So, In other words, "All you need do is have faith in the offer and the one who offers it", contradicts what you have said earlier; as well as contradicting how it is that some believers do not overcome.

Yes, Christ loves me. He loves all of mankind. He opened the gate to Heaven; revealing Grace to us. However, you are ignoring His teachings that we must carry our own cross; that we must overcome as He overcame. He does not carry our cross for us and He does not do our overcoming for us. He showed us how to accomplish what He accomplished. Mankind could not find the way to reach Grace and return to Father. So, Father sent Christ to show us the way. Yet, we must do our own suffering; and that suffering comes from the baptism by fire which purifies and circumcises our heart. Christ's journey was not a cake walk; and neither is ours. Without the fire of trials and tribulation which come with the awakening of our spirit, we cannot overcome. The True rest we find in Christ comes AFTER we have experienced a great deal of our baptism by fire. Overcoming takes place once the baptism by fire is completed. Having faith in Christ brings His power and help to us; but it does not replace the fact that we must still carry our own cross. Having faith in Christ does not remove the need for baptism by fire, which fire brings with it great pain and suffering. Christ does not remove our pain and suffering; hence we must carry our own cross.

Romans 8:17 (KJV)

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Shalom,

jo