The path to overcoming as defined by Paul in Romans

[_Franktalk]

Romans 8

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Paul tells us that those who walk in the spirit are not condemned. Notice he does not say that those in Rome are walking in the spirit. The only one he calls out is himself who is walking in the spirit. The walk with Christ is a walk with Christ. Paul would not know who is on that walk and who is not. From outward behavior we may have a good guess but no absolute knowledge. Many assume that to be “in Christ Jesus” is to have faith in Christ. But Paul goes on to describe in detail what it means to walk in Christ. It goes beyond belief or faith to an actual change in us.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The body is of the world and is not subject to the law of God. But our spirit can know the things of God. Paul is asking us to do an almost impossible task. But perfection is not easy. We have a guide in the Holy Ghost. We can ask for spiritual strength to overcome the world. And we can recognize the wisdom of the world as a stumbling block. This last one is very difficult for those who think them self wise. The world will hate you as it hated Christ once you reject the wisdom of the world.


9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

In our walk in the spirit we develop an attitude about the world. It is the thing which has separated us from going back to our Father. A true son of God wants to be with his Father again. This is the true meaning of the prodigal son. A son who went into the world only to find the world did not offer what he thought it did. And then after the son realizes that the world is not what he thought he seeks to return to his Father.

So the big question is whether Christ is in you? Paul is not saying by faith in Christ but an actual indwelling of Christ. This is required. Paul clearly states in verse 9 that if you do not have the Spirit of Christ in you then verse 10 and 11 do not apply to you.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Unless we cry out Abba Father and seek the Father we will be chained here on this earth. Only when we develop our spiritual strength to overcome the world and glory in the tribulations that come our way like Christ did will we be truly a son of God. We can do it. God wants us back and He helps us along the way. He forgives and protects us. The Holy Spirit whispers in our ear to do good and shun evil. The Holy Spirit is not of this world. So you must cast off this world so the Holy Spirit can indwell with you. You will be in the world but not of the world once you start your walk.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

The entire creation is in bondage waiting for the children of God to walk in the spirit. As we set ourselves free the creation will be set free as well. When Christ broke the bonds of death the entire creation knew it.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seethe, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

We seek the glorified body that is not in bondage to sin and death. A body that does not die. A body that we can exist in in our everlasting life.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

We have no idea how much help is being directed towards us at this very moment. I thank God for all of His support in this difficult task.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

To help us along our path God has provided the prophets. Those who He selected to give us His message. I think it is obvious that God selected spirit children and placed them in bodies of flesh at various times. He knew us before we came here so He knows what we need and how far we have advanced already.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, for thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Here Paul is describing the power behind the plan of salvation. All we must do is accept the path and not be swayed by tribulation, distress, persecution, famine, nakedness, peril, or sword.

[_Albion]

Again, Jo, you seem to be under the impression that being saved in Christ means that the believer's life takes place on a primrose path without trial. I have no problem with your premise that walking with him in the Spirit is taking up the cross overcoming the trials and temptations of life that are there on every turn so that we are made over in Christ's image. That is why the Spirit is there as a comforter in the first place, to enable us to overcome whatever assails.

I have attempted to respond to your question so I am sorry if it does not neatly fit the idea that you have. Why would anyone assume that in the churches referred to in Revelations that everyone continued in their faith. There is not even agreement on what period John is talking about...future, historical, or preterist and because of this there is so much speculation and interpretation than an exact understanding is difficult. I suspect this makes for a perfect cover for those groups like Mormons who assume they have the perfect understanding of it as you appear to claim and can lay claim any kind of interpretation that suits. So, the simple answer to your question is that some people lose their faith. The did in the past, they do today, and I assume they will in the future. I believe that is who is being referred to.

I think in your quest to know as much as God knows (wasn't that the very first temptation of Satan in the garden?) you have become so wrapped up in riddles that you have missed the one mystery that God has fully revealed....namely his Son who is his glory rather than the "intelligence" you appear to be after.

I have honestly tried to answer your question but I have not received an answer to the one I originally posted. What does free mean? What does righteousness FROM God mean? I'll add one more. What do righteousness and and justified mean

[_Franktalk]

Romans 9

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Paul has great sorrow for his fellow Jews. With the Lord as their guide they became the chosen to carry the seed of Christ. It was the Jews who supplied the father of faith. It was the Jews who were chosen to be prophets to bring to the world the message of God. Yet they were not ready when Christ came. So now they are blinded and the rest of the world in the gentiles has been given an opportunity to accept the way. The gentiles for the most part have also followed the Jews in not being ready. For all of the talk of faith there so very few which seek the path to spirituality.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, at this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

The children of men can not change the plan of salvation. The purpose of God is done by the calling of the seed. To carry out the promise that God made.

12 It was said unto her, the elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

At various times God will intervene in the affairs of men to carry out His purpose.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Some lessons are very difficult to learn. It is the will of God to have the earth act as that learning ground. God at various times has made vessels of wrath that were fitted to destruction. A classic example of this was Nebuchadnezzar.

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

So as God makes His wrath known He also makes His glory known with vessels of mercy.

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

The plan of salvation is for all souls. Only those who refuse after knowing God will suffer spiritual death. But God is longsuffering and patient.

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabbath had left us a seed, we had been as Sodom, and been made like unto Gomorrah.

The Lord will not allow the balance of good and evil to swing far from center. The world must offer a choice for all who walk in the flesh.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The Jews did stumble but God is not done with them. Where they were used to bring the message to the world they now act as an example for us all. We can all stumble on many things. Many stumble on scripture. They use the wisdom of the world to find a spiritual message. In this they do stumble.