Fallacy of Too Much Information

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_J Green
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Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information

Post by _J Green »

Nightlion wrote:Oh, gee, how much J Green ignores Nightlion. Hmmm? Why would that be? Has he no defense? Is ignoring Nightlion his best defense? His only defense?


I've missed a few responses here, Nightlion. And I apologize. But I need to check out for a little while. I'll pop back later in the day and try to respond then.

Regards
". . . but they must long feel that to flatter and follow others, without being flattered and followed in turn, is but a state of half enjoyment" - Jane Austen in "Persuasion"
_Nightlion
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Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information

Post by _Nightlion »

J Green wrote:
Nightlion wrote:Oh, gee, how much J Green ignores Nightlion. Hmmm? Why would that be? Has he no defense? Is ignoring Nightlion his best defense? His only defense?


I've missed a few responses here, Nightlion. And I apologize. But I need to check out for a little while. I'll pop back later in the day and try to respond then.

Regards

Need council. I get it. My warmest regards to the brethren. Would to God we were pulling the same traces.
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_CaliforniaKid
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Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

J Green wrote:Having shared spiritual experiences with those of other faiths in several countries, I tend to think that the religious diversity argument is generally overstated. (As long as we're not pulling the Gadianton bluff!) I tend to think it strengthens the hand of faith rather than the other way around.

I'm curious why you say this. With Marian apparitions saying Mary should be hailed as co-redemtrix, Hindus experiencing vivid memories of past lives, Pentecostals seeing visions that tell them all kinds of zany things, UFO enthusiasts experiencing alien abduction, patriarchal blessings back in the nineteenth century telling people they're going to be around for the second coming, a small army of Mormon fundamentalist prophets being told in revelations that they're the "one mighty and strong"—hell, I could go on for days—how can this tumult of contradictory experiences be reconciled in a way that "strengthens the hand of faith"? I suppose you could chalk the heresies up to demonic influence or throw out the propositional content of spiritual experience as unimportant, but then I'm left wondering why the propositional content of your Mormon experiences should be an exception.
_Darth J
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Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information

Post by _Darth J »

J Green wrote:
Darth J wrote:Did anyone ever explain why relying on subjective spiritual experiences to evaluate claims of objective fact is a method of epistemology that is valid for no other area of human experience except factual claims that are necessary to support the truth claims of the LDS Church?

And not just subjective spiritual experiences, but the LDS Church's self-serving ipse dixit as to what such experiences mean?

Oh, that's silly. Of course someone explained that. I should probably just re-read the thread.


Just to follow up on this a bit, Darth. Since I would argue that this epistomology is valid for other areas of human experience, I'm unsure what kind of answer I need to provide here. While I wouldn't use it in evaluating technical data in Intelligence work, I have used it in other military venues and other aspects of my life.


"Human experience" was qualified by "claims of objective fact." I did not at any point here dispute that practitioners in a given field can develop and use intuition about their field (although as the OP notes, that kind of intuition is not always reliable). I don't dispute intuition in general, like "I feel like I should turn left up here" or "I think this one friend of mine is about to call me." I don't dispute that people have spiritual experiences.

I dispute the idea that subjective spiritual experience can be used to evaluate the truth value of claims about objective facts in the discernible, tangible world. You might have faith that you can trust your wife. You might intuitively know how she's feeling or even generally what she's thinking. You might have a spiritual experience that makes you feel like she's the one you should marry. But it's unlikely you rely on faith, intuition, or spiritual experience to determine whether your wife even exists in the first place.

If you had a teacher who wanted you to rely on spiritual experience to know that the Etruscans or the Cherokees or the Moors ever existed in history, you would probably stop attending that class. But when a church wants you to rely on spiritual experience to know that the Jaredite or the Nephite civilization existed, well, that's different.

If you had an investment advisor who wanted you to rely on your intuition and spirituality to invest 10% of your money in an enterprise that made claims of fact that you're supposed to accept on faith, and you're not allowed to know what the money you give him will be used for, and he actively tells you not to seek contrary information about his claims from third parties, you probably would not give him your money. But if a church tells you the same thing, well, that's different.
_Darth J
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Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information

Post by _Darth J »

CaliforniaKid wrote: In religious apologetics, I think this sort of error happens all the time. There are several pieces of information, for instance, that seem to point decisively toward the untruth of Mormonism. Joseph’s known translations of Egyptian texts aren’t borne out by Egyptology. His description of ancient America isn’t borne out by archaeology or DNA. His scripture borrows heavily (including anachronisms and translation errors) from the KJV. His time-sensitive prophecies largely didn’t come true. His moral teachings and behavior frequently seem—well, immoral. When we keep things in proper perspective and filter out the "noise," the case against Joseph looks pretty definitive.

Yet in the face of these fairly decisive factors, apologists continually call for more information. They point to things like authentic Hebrew names in the Book of Mormon, sentence structure that could be Hebraic, or the presence of the letters “NHM” on a cairn in the right part of Arabia. These things are interesting, but ultimately they're distractions. They just don't have the same importance or evidentiary weight as Joseph's regular prophetic utterance of patent untruths. Hebraic structures in the Book of Mormon are like heart disease risk factors. If the major symptoms of a heart attack aren’t there, you don’t conclude a heart attack is happening just because a patient has a few risk factors.


There is also a proclivity in LDS culture, and probably in other religious traditions, to doing this in reverse when members apostatize. In addition to the superstitious assertion that apostates "really know" the Church is true, but they want to sin or were "offended" by someone, frequently apostates will be questioned to try to thin-slice it down to one or two points of history or doctrine that made the apostate lose faith. Then the believing member and/or apologist will either offer apologist talking points to try to explain away whatever the perceived problem is, or will suggest that the issue(s) be "put on the shelf" (if the believer can't come up with a faith-promoting story or apologetic nostrum).

A kind of a funny thing about the thin-slicing idea is that some beliefs are fractally wrong, to the point where it really doesn't matter where you try to slice it. The untruth comes out no matter what factors you pick. In the case of the LDS Church, asking me what specific beliefs or historical points or practices made me lose faith is essentially asking, "Which drop of water is going to destroy this town?"

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_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

I, too, would like to join in the chorus of praise for J Green's civility on this thread. Celestial Kingdom is right--there is unfortunately often a tendency on these boards for people to say particularly vicious things.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_EAllusion
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Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information

Post by _EAllusion »

The problem of religious pluralism in the context of spiritual experiences I think needs to be looked at as an issue of inter-subjectivity. When you have a spiritual experience and conclude that this corresponds to some religiously-themed external reality - say that a diety is communicating with you - you are making a causal attribution regarding your experience that isn't immediately obvious. That doesn't mean it's wrong, but it isn't a given. Secular skeptics of these religious attributions generally view them as an artifact of errors in cognition. Remembering past lives is a defect in how memory works, and so on. Religious skeptics may also think that there is spiritual warfare afoot and demons and such are tricking you.

Here's where inter-subjectivity comes in. If spiritual sense is supposed to be like ordinary sense and trusted similarly, our most powerful tool for validating ordinary sense is confirming across subjects and types of senses that the same phenomenon is being observed. Evan Fales describes this as 'cross-checking' which we constantly do both intuitively and explicitly. We check what we perceive against other means of perception and what others are telling us they perceive. That's how we make judgments about illusions, hallucinations, and other forms of perception. The vastly different spiritual experience content people receive doesn't conform to this pattern. It's easy to say that's just God telling people what they need to hear, but the problem is that this is invoked in a purely ad hoc fashion. You might as well say, "Well, it's magic." There's no coherent reason that God is telling some neolithic tribesman that details specific to his culture are true to the neglect of the LDS faith. There's no set of reasons that justify such strange behavior. God's actions here are a total mystery in the same way God's action/inaction is a total mystery when trying to make sense of natural evils. Further, there's a curious pattern in spiritual experiences when they are interpreted as validating a faith. They almost always contain the content that conforms to the expectations, imagination, or culture of the experiencer. This is a phenomenon that is common in delusions/hallucinations, but is not necessarily in ordinary senses. It's like God being able to 'cure' cancer, but not regenerate a limb. God's action in the world is arbitrarily limited by what human experience can account for sans God.
_J Green
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Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information

Post by _J Green »

Nightlion wrote:Need council. I get it. My warmest regards to the brethren. Would to God we were pulling the same traces.

Hi, Nightlion. I can assure you that I'm not an agent for the Chruch. I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Sorry.
". . . but they must long feel that to flatter and follow others, without being flattered and followed in turn, is but a state of half enjoyment" - Jane Austen in "Persuasion"
_J Green
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Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information

Post by _J Green »

CaliforniaKid wrote:Blink is really an argument for what Gladwell calls "thin-slicing." Intuitive decision making is one example of thin-slicing, and Gladwell does argue for its usefulness. However, Gladwell also carefully qualifies this argument. "Thin-slicing" can also be done in a very conscious, deliberate way, as in the heart attack example I described in the OP. And even in cases where intuitive decision-making is useful, it can go horribly wrong if done incorrectly. It works best when bound by rules and informed by a lifetime of training. Careful, conscious deliberation is still required to formulate the rules and training regimens that produce effective intuitive deciders.

Consider a few of Gladwell's examples. There's a tennis expert who’s able to tell whether a tennis player is going to double-fault just as the player is beginning his swing. There are art historians who can tell a forgery in the first five seconds of looking at it. There are many professional athletes who make baskets or hit baseballs with almost zero reaction time. These are people who have spent their entire lives training their brains to make particular kinds of intuitive judgments in the most effective possible way. As for rules, consider the case of improv comedy teams. Practitioners of improv have an all-important rule: never stop the action or turn down another participant’s suggestion. In real life, Gladwell says, we’re very efficient action-stoppers, because this keeps us safe. When amateurs do improv, they tend to intuitively want to stop the action. But action-stopping makes for bad fiction, bad drama, and bad comedy. To be good at improv, you have to systematically train yourself to follow this rule.

Applying this to religion, then, it seems unlikely that intuitive judgments are going to be effective unless they're informed by some training in Religious Studies and in the recognized rules of good decision-making.

As a side-note, Gladwell also argues that the context of intuitive decision-making is important. It's very easy to "prime" someone to behave in a particular way. Use a few aggressive words in a conversation, and you can trigger aggression in your conversation partner. Imagine, then, the power of an environment that constantly reinforces Mormon truth claims and "primes" people to have certain kinds of spiritual experiences. The LDS community is not a context that's been constructed to encourage unbiased intuitive decision-making. Rather, it's a context that's been carefully crafted to bias intuitive decision-making in a particular direction.

ETA: By the way J Green, I too appreciate your reasonableness and civility in this discussion. It's all too rare on these boards.


A few years back the military paid for me to take a leadership in crisis course from the Harvard Kennedy Center Extension. I gathered with a number of first responders, like FEMA reps, fire chiefs from the larger metropolitan areas, hospital administrators, etc. And we looked at intuitive decision making during crisis management. We reviewed case studies from 9/11, BP oil spill, Hudson River landing, etc. and we got to hear from the key individuals managing these events. Good stuff, and Gladwell is right that everything can go horribly wrong in a split second.

Your take on intuition as applied to religion is interesting and will give me something to chew on for a few days. My view from the course is that intuition works best within loose frameworks that are prepped and practiced. Aside from muscle memory, athletes are conditioned within a larger framework of repetitive events, so spotting indicators and acting on them becomes instinctive. But one of the biggest factors becomes the mechanics of how organizations are culturally architected. The way people interact changes the dynamics of how intuition works. And this gets to your observation of aggression as well as your point that spiritual experiences can be primed within a set construct. As a living organization made of humans, I would expect the church to exhibit some of these same dynamics. Interesting stuff.

Regards
". . . but they must long feel that to flatter and follow others, without being flattered and followed in turn, is but a state of half enjoyment" - Jane Austen in "Persuasion"
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Here. Let me sum up Mr. J Green's position:

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The above image may or may not be that of an apple. You really can't know. It's better to feel your way around the issue.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
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