nc47 wrote: You can't demonstrate the logical consistency of any system. Goedel's impossibility theorems.
If that really were the case, then it would not be possible for Goedel to have formulated a theorem, since he would not be able to prove his theorem of no logical consistency was logically consistent.
How do you prove the logic of Goedel's theorem that it's impossible to be logical, pretending for fun that that's what it means?
I don't know the proof. I didn't take real analysis (or whatever class it's taught in).
"It is so hard to believe because it is so hard to obey." - Soren Kierkegaard
Tobin wrote:And I do not know if there was a Noah either. There may have been or there may not have been.
Considering the Bible gives the genealogy of Noah and his descendants continuing on through Abraham and eventually giving the genealogy of Jesus himself, what sense does it make if Noah wasn't a real person?
At what point in the genealogy would we go from talking about 'figurative' or 'metaphorical' people to living breathing people?
Darth J wrote: If that really were the case, then it would not be possible for Goedel to have formulated a theorem, since he would not be able to prove his theorem of no logical consistency was logically consistent.
How do you prove the logic of Goedel's theorem that it's impossible to be logical, pretending for fun that that's what it means?
I don't know the proof. I didn't take real analysis (or whatever class it's taught in).
I see. But you're asserting it anyway.
If you can't demonstrate the logical consistency of anything, then why do you care if LDS teachings are inconsistent with science?
And I do not know if there was a Noah either. There may have been or there may not have been.
From The Book of Mormon:
Alma 10:
[22] Yea, and I say unto you that if it were not for the prayers of the righteous, who are now in the land, that ye would even now be visited with utter destruction; yet it would not be by flood, as were the people in the days of Noah, but it would be by famine, and by pestilence, and the sword.
3 Nephi 22:
[9] For this, the waters of Noah unto me, for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth, so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee.
Ether 6:
[7] And it came to pass that when they were buried in the deep there was no water that could hurt them, their vessels being tight like unto a dish, and also they were tight like unto the ark of Noah; therefore when they were encompassed about by many waters they did cry unto the Lord, and he did bring them forth again upon the top of the waters.
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
The great thing about the steel is that Nephi explains exactly how he made the steel (fire and bellows to smelt ore) and that he taught his people how to do this. So, the next time steel shows up, it must be obsidian embedded in wood. How are we supposed to take that seriously?
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
And I do not know if there was a Noah either. There may have been or there may not have been.
From The Book of Mormon:
Alma 10:
[22] Yea, and I say unto you that if it were not for the prayers of the righteous, who are now in the land, that ye would even now be visited with utter destruction; yet it would not be by flood, as were the people in the days of Noah, but it would be by famine, and by pestilence, and the sword.
3 Nephi 22:
[9] For this, the waters of Noah unto me, for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth, so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee.
Ether 6:
[7] And it came to pass that when they were buried in the deep there was no water that could hurt them, their vessels being tight like unto a dish, and also they were tight like unto the ark of Noah; therefore when they were encompassed about by many waters they did cry unto the Lord, and he did bring them forth again upon the top of the waters.
From the Book of Abraham, for which Tobin also never fails to offer a shrill, incoherent defense:
Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.
Pretty sure the Book of Abraham says that Abraham was not relying on folktales and his own opinion, but was shown the Earth and human history and the stars and planets by God through the Urim and Thummim.
And this is before we even talk about the Book of Moses, where Enoch was shown a supernatural, "satellite's eye view" of the human race and shown Noah building the ark and the flood that killed everyone on the planet who wasn't on it.
You know, since the point of the Book of Moses is kind of that what is written in Genesis comes from supernatural visions that God gave to Moses.
Bob Loblaw wrote:The great thing about the steel is that Nephi explains exactly how he made the steel (fire and bellows to smelt ore) and that he taught his people how to do this. So, the next time steel shows up, it must be obsidian embedded in wood. How are we supposed to take that seriously?
Umm, you can totally smelt wood! Hello, Bob! Ever heard of a thing called CHARCOAL?
Bob Loblaw wrote:The great thing about the steel is that Nephi explains exactly how he made the steel (fire and bellows to smelt ore) and that he taught his people how to do this. So, the next time steel shows up, it must be obsidian embedded in wood. How are we supposed to take that seriously?
There's a lot more that goes into smelting crucible steel than a fire and a bellows. To get an idea of how complex this is, get on Netflix and watch an episode of Nova entitled Secrets of the Viking Sword.
Nephi is sadly mistaken if he thinks he can smelt crucible steel by blowing air on some hot coals.
Tobin wrote:And I do not know if there was a Noah either. There may have been or there may not have been.
Considering the Bible gives the genealogy of Noah and his descendants continuing on through Abraham and eventually giving the genealogy of Jesus himself, what sense does it make if Noah wasn't a real person?
At what point in the genealogy would we go from talking about 'figurative' or 'metaphorical' people to living breathing people?
They could simply be made up claims of legitimacy. Ooooo, look I can trace my lineage back to Noah. Aren't I special?!?
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom