LDS things that are false if cafeteria Mo's are right

[_Bazooka]

faqs,

By now, you should realize it isn't even worthwhile talking to Bazooka. You can state the sky is blue or the sun shines and he'll ask for a CFR. Is it reasonable to think that from Noah's perspective that seemed like the whole world was flooding? Yes. He most certainly didn't have a satellite to look down and see if the entire world was indeed flooding. And clearly many here would like to impose the interpretation that the whole world flooded on the scriptures, which I think is absurd.

The same is true for the creation story and Adam and Eve. Evolution is perfectly valid and reasonable. However, that does not preclude God from creating Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden (it wasn't this world) and when they transgressed, they were cast out into our world. This has no impact on the validity of Christ's atonement either since it is for all the descendants of Adam, who by this point includes all of mankind. Mormons can accept evolution and the gospel with no distress at all.

Thanks Tobin.... You've said it well and correct....

Thanks Tobin.... For missing the point.... again....

The point is not wether it is feasible for Noah to be a mythical figure, or for the flood not to have been global, or for Adam and Eve not to have been the literal first humans on the planet earth and the source of all current human kind. The point is that the Church teaches, and expects its members to believe, that the Flood literally happened, it was global, Noah was a real person, Adam & Eve were real people who were the first parents, before whom no death existed. That's the doctrine. That you contend so frequently that this cannot be the case, as far as you are concerned, merely shows that you are indeed Cafeteria Mormon's.

As I said, thanks Tobin!

[_honorentheos]

The only place I've ever seen this mentioned, and then only in passing and as plausible interpretation, was by McConkie in Mormon Doctrine.

I've never heard a "doctrine" containing this claim taught by the Brethren in all my life in the Church. Not in forty years.

Droopy, how isn't D&C 88 clear in describing the earth as a living thing that will die and be quickened? The articles of faith tell you it will be renewed and become paradisiacal in it's glory - a glory described in Section 88 as earned due to it's keeping celestial laws. This in comparison to other spheres that don't and become kingdoms of another glory.

It's pretty straightforward.

Here's the verses I quoted:

25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—

26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.

Explain that. You can't claim absence of evidence as there is evidence right above this sentence. If you want to do a little web sleuthing you'll find talk after talk about it.

You don't like this doctrine? Sorry. It's not my church, don't blame me.

[_Nightlion]

For ldsfax and everyone else doomed to read scripture UN-
Enlightened,note that Eve rejoiced at the birth of Cain knowing somehow he, unlike all their children for a couple of hundred years would not reject the gospel and love Satan more than God, as all his bothers a d sisters had up till then. That's why Cain had a wife and confederates after killing Abel.

Cain was a full on saint who walked and talked with God but fell as only a true saint can, he fell hard becoming perdition and the father of Satan's lies.

For this same cause of unenlightenedness I have to wink and wince at most discussions here abouts.

[_Bob Loblaw]

Another thing to remember is that in LDS theology there were two creations: a spiritual creation first, and a temporal creation next. If all things were created spiritually and were intended to fill the measure of their creation, that strongly suggests that the earth is supposed to have some sort of spiritual existence.

[_Bazooka]

For all those that think Mormons are allowed to believe in pre-adamites...

Find the Answers in the Scriptures
BY PRESIDENT HAROLD B. LEE
Find the Answers in the Scriptures
In wise counsel, the apostle Paul spoke to his beloved Timothy: “Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.” (1 Tim. 4:16.) But then he said: “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” (1 Tim. 5:8.)

I was somewhat sorrowed recently to hear someone, a sister who comes from a church family, ask, “What about the pre-Adamic people?” Here was someone who I thought was fully grounded in the faith.

I asked. “What about the pre-Adamic people?”

She replied, “Well, aren’t there evidences that people preceded the Adamic period of the earth?”

I said, “Have you forgotten the scripture that says, ‘And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also. …’” (Moses 3:7.)

http://www.LDS.org/ensign/1972/12/find- ... s?lang=eng

[_SteelHead]

Tobin...
Claims that Sherem is an outsider, while simultaneously claiming Noah as fictional.

The baby, the bathwater, the tub, and the kitchen sink have now been thrown out the window along with any basis for believing in any scripture.

According to this nut the only way to know the truth is via an experience that he himself has not had. Yes he claims a visitation. But the visitor told him nothing. The conclusions drawn by him are completely internal, subjective and fully influenced by confirmation bias as people making similar claims with opposing conclusions are a dime a dozen.

[_Droopy]

Forgive the language, but if the Church has members like nc47, ldsfaqs and Tobin teaching classes or going on reach outs or supporting the missionaries in teaching investigators, then the Church is f*****. Proper f*****.

I think you meant to say "consigliari" here, didn't you?

Thanks for the clarification.

[_Bob Loblaw]

I think you meant to say "consigliari" here, didn't you?

Thanks for the clarification.

nc47, ldfaqs, and Tobin all disbelieve things that the church teaches. How is that different from consig?

[_Darth J]

Since not-a-cafeteria-Mormon Nelson Chung, bcspace, and others remind everyone so much that one can totally reject the doctrine of a global flood, accept the theory of evolution, and yet still be in complete harmony with the revealed truths of the restored gospel, I though it would be fun to review a few things that are false if the global flood doctrine is not true, the Tower of Babel story is not true, and/or evolution is true. Anyone, feel free to add to this list:

--the need for a savior from physical death
--the plausibility that the extraterrestrial demigod Elohim, who lived out his mortal life on another planet, is a primate just like the humans who evolved according to the specific conditions of this planet
--the Doctrine and Covenants
--the Book of Mormon
--the Book of Abraham
--the Book of Moses
--the idea that the current leaders of the LDS Church can understand the difference between their personal beliefs/opinions and truths revealed from God
--the idea that past Mormon leaders could understand the difference between their personal beliefs/ideas and truths revealed from God
--the need for a savior from sin, since there would have been no Fall if human beings had been living, reproducing, and dying for thousands of years before Adam and Eve allegedly left the Garden of Eden
--the idea of a pure Adamic language that Joseph Smith taught
--the idea of the priesthood being a patriarchal order that started with Adam
--the Mormon doctrine that prior to the Second Coming, all the Saints will meet at Adam-ondi-ahman to link priesthood keys back to Adam (see above)
--the doctrine that Adam-ondi-ahman has any basis in reality (the LDS Church owns the land and has placards identifying it as Adam-ondi-ahman, and the D&C contains a revelation identifying that area as Adam-ondi-ahman)
--Joseph F. Smith's vision of the redemption of the dead that was canonized in the D&C, which confirms that everyone on Earth except the passengers on Noah's ark died in a global flood
--the doctrine of human existence being divided into priesthood dispensations that began with Adam
--the doctrine that marriage is a divine institution that Elohim initiated in the Garden of Eden, as opposed to marriage being a human-created social and legal construct
--the doctrine that Adam and Eve were given a choice to experience mortality and death, which is the closest thing to a theodicy Mormonism offers (suffering happens because of free agency and because we need to experience it to become gods, as opposed to suffering and death just being things that arise out of nature)
--the doctrine that all living things were created spiritually before they were created physically (why would an organism spiritually exist forever in a form adapted to conditions of a specific environment and time on Earth?)

Anyway, there is a start. Just some minor, tangential things that are not central to the message of the restored gospel.

Your actual understanding of LDS doctrine is so utterly superficial as to render most of your demagoguery comic, if not simply silly.

Hello, Droopy! I see that you are anxious to make a total fool of yourself yet again, and I am more than happy to accommodate you! Please pick something on this list that you assert is not taught by the LDS Church. I will then provide an overwhelming amount of evidence to show that it is, thereby demonstrating that you either don't know what you're talking about, or you're lying. You can then respond with an incoherent tirade about how I am supposedly an uneducated liberal leftist socialist communist liberal secular leftist liberal secularist.

By the way, it is very obvious that you don't know anything about biology or evolution. The reason it is obvious is that you don't know what you need to say to fake it. And when you used the word "scientistic," you instantly failed the thread. But please keep going anyway!

Also, if you or ldsfaqs could articulate why Elohim would indulge in a special creation of Adam and Eve and stick them in the enclave of the Garden of Eden, when there already were humans living, reproducing, and dying on the Earth, that would be great.

[_Darth J]

The belief that the earth possesses intelligence,

This is not LDS doctrine, but a speculation or conjecture based upon a single scriptural vignette which itself does not directly teach such an idea. McConkie mentions it in passing in Mormon Doctrine.

Hi, Droopy! Are you lying, or do you just not know very much about LDS doctrine?

"The Flood and the Tower of Babel, January 1998 Ensign

Latter-day prophets teach that the Flood or the total immersion of the earth in water represents the earth’s required baptism. Elder John A. Widtsoe of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles explained: “Latter-day Saints look upon the earth as a living organism, one which is gloriously filling ‘the measure of its creation.’ They look upon the flood as a baptism of the earth, symbolizing a cleansing of the impurities of the past, and the beginning of a new life. This has been repeatedly taught by the leaders of the Church. The deluge was an immersion of the earth in water.” He writes that the removal of earth’s wicked inhabitants in the Flood represents that which occurs in our own baptism for the remission of sins.

"The Gospel and the Scientific View: How the Earth Came to Be," September 1980 Ensign

Within this enlarged view of a celestial uniformity, the worldwide flood of Noah’s time, so upsetting to a restricted secular view, fits easily into place. It is the earth’s baptism. Brigham Young pointed out that the earth “abides the law of its creation, has been baptized with water, will be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost, and by-and-by will be prepared for the faithful to dwell upon” (in Journal of Discourses, 8:83).

The law for a world such as ours closely parallels the law for its inhabitants. Like each of us, the earth existed for a time in the presence of God in a premortal, uncorrupted condition. Like each of us, it entered a fallen, mortal condition. Like us, it must be sanctified by being born again, first of the water and then of the Spirit. The earth has been cleansed by water baptism, and its cleansing by fire associated with the last days will allow the Holy Spirit to dwell throughout the whole earth during the Millennium when the earth, not yet glorified, will be sanctified. For the earth, as for us, the work of salvation can only be completed through death, which will alter its mortal structure, followed by a glorious resurrection, which will establish it upon celestial principles that it may abide in that glory forever.

As Orson Pratt pointed out: “Who, in looking upon the earth as it ascends in the scale of the universe, does not desire to keep pace with it? … O man, remember the future destiny and glory of the earth, and secure thine everlasting inheritance upon the same, that when it shall be glorious, thou shalt be glorious also” (in Journal of Discourses, 1:333–34).

Old Testament Student Manual Genesis-2 Samuel, (1980), 50–59 (4-15)

Orson Pratt declared:

“The first ordinance instituted for the cleansing of the earth, was that of immersion in water; it was buried in the liquid element, and all things sinful upon the face of the earth were washed away. As it came forth from the ocean floor, like the new-born child, it was innocent; it rose to newness of life. It was its second birth from the womb of mighty waters—a new world issuing from the ruins of the old, clothed with all the innocence of this first creation.” (In Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 4:20.)

“The earth, in its present condition and situation, is not a fit habitation for the sanctified; but it abides the law of its creation, has been baptized with water, will be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost, and by-and-by will be prepared for the faithful to dwell upon” (Brigham Young, in Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 4:20).