Florida jury instructions, before and after SYG

[_Bazooka]

And if pigs flew we wouldn't usually eat pork.
The person to "blame" is Trayvon, not Zimmerman. Man you people are dunce.

Why are you so rude?

Zimmerman DID not "confront" Trayvon

Actually, he did. If he hadn't the two wouldn't have come into contact and the events would not have happened.

and even if he had, human beings are ALLOWED to speak to each other.

Human beings are allowed to walk home to their Dad's house without being confronted on the baseless assumption that someone thinks they are up to no good.

Is that so complicated to understand?

You seem to be the one with comprehension challenges...

"Recommendation"s are not any sort of moral imperative, and if fascinates me that you think they are.

If the Police advise you to stay in the car, you stay in the car.

Let me put this another way.....

Oh, do you have to?

There's a case in which the Police put a guy in Coma when he was tackled by a cop.

Zimmerman is not a cop.

This guy was actually an innocent bystander. But, a witness pointed in his direction and he apparently not knowing what was going on, ran briefly. And because he ran, the cops thought he was guilty, which resulted in a 10 Million dollar award.

Zimmerman is not a cop.

Now, despite the verdict, was the innocent man "guilty" simply because he "jogged" briefly?
Was it "contributory", yes..... But, was he the "cause" of the event happening? Or was the cop at fault for an over-use of force when there was no evidence he was the actual criminal?

I see your point (I'm kidding)

You are doing the same thing, you are judging a potential unwise action as being at fault, compared to the actual action that was at fault for Trayvons death.

If Zimmerman had stayed in his car, as the police requested he do, would Trayvon be alive or dead? Yes/No

Being stupid, or dumb, or unwise, etc. (in your opinion) is not guilt or fault.

Of course it is you compete imbecile. Zimmerman was at fault for precipitating an event that, had done as advised, would not have occurred.

The ONLY person who had guilt and was unwise that DIRECTLY caused his death was Trayvon.

The facts suggest otherwise. Zimmerman was found not guilty of murder/manslaughter. That doesn't mean he wasn't guilty of creating the situation where the killing of Trayvon became a potential outcome. Had Zimmerman not got out of the car, had Zimmerman not been carrying a loaded gun, would Trayvon be alive or dead? Yes/No

No one is saying Zimmerman didn't "contribute" to the event happening, just like if he hadn't even cared if some man was walking around suspiciously the event wouldn't have happened.

Zimmerman, up to the point he left the car, acted completely properly. When he left the car, against police advice, he precipitated a chain of events that led to a death.

But, the only one who "caused" the event to happen was Trayvon, by using violence in a situation that didn't require violence.

How do you know it didn't require violence? You're walking home and you are approached by an unidentified stranger with a loaded gun, I'd say violence is definitely an option. Trayvon might have felt he was about to be mugged or killed (he was right!) and so reacted to try and protect himself.

Is that really so complicated to understand?

You're the one having comprehension challenges....again.

[_ldsfaqs]

Why are you so rude?

Because you people are so rude. And I attack rudeness.

Actually, he did. If he hadn't the two wouldn't have come into contact and the events would not have happened.

No he didn't.... Trayvon confronted him by going home and them coming back and jumping Zimmerman, that's what happened according to the recordings etc.

Zimmerman was keeping an eye out from a distance, that's not "confronting" dork.

Human beings are allowed to walk home to their Dad's house without being confronted on the baseless assumption that someone thinks they are up to no good.

Again, people are allowed to ask people questions, it's a free country.
Thus your claim is FALSE and nothing more than wishful thinking. In the REAL WORLD people are allowed to freely converse.

Further again, Zimmerman did not "confront" Trayvon, Trayvon did. You guys keep lying about the facts and reality to make your points, and you do it more below.

If the Police advise you to stay in the car, you stay in the car.

Dispatchers are not police, and further, what part of it being a free country do you not understand? Again, what if Trayvon had been a criminal and Zimmerman kept an eye out and had stopped a crime. Was Zimmerman a hero them or a "criminal" in your warped mind?

Zimmerman is not a cop.

Zimmerman being a cop or not is not the point. The point is is that the VICTIM is not the purpitrator as Zimmerman is in your mind, simply because he may have done something not advised.

Is that so complicated to understand?

The only CRIMINAL "and" MORALLY causing action was Trayvon's.
Is that so complicated to understand? Because Zimmerman just as easily could have been a hero, stopping a rape, a murder, a burglary. Is your brain not able to process?

If Zimmerman had stayed in his car, as the police requested he do, would Trayvon be alive or dead? Yes/No

Do you not understand that is a stupid question? If you knew anything about anything you would know that it is.
Let me give you examples.

If a guy walks into a bar full of bikers, is HE at fault because he kills someone in self defense?
If a woman walks a parking lot late at night, and a mugger comes at her and she kills him, is SHE at fault for being in the situation, or dressing provocatively?

You have no comprehension of what legal and moral liability is to ask such a stupid question.
It's a straw-man, a diversion tactic.

The only "actionable" action that caused Trayvon's death is HIS ASSAULT on Zimmerman.
If Trayvon hadn't decided to assault Zimmerman, he wouldn't be dead. YES or NO???

Of course it is you compete imbecile. Zimmerman was at fault for precipitating an event that, had done as advised, would not have occurred.

Ya, you never say anything disrespectful.

NO HE IS NOT.... The actual precipitating event was Trayvon's assault, PERIOD.
People freely doing anything that does not cause "harm" is not a precipitating event legally or morally.

What is SO difficult for the liberal brain to be able to understand that? Why don't you read a law book and some other common sense things and learn something.

The facts suggest otherwise. Zimmerman was found not guilty of murder/manslaughter. That doesn't mean he wasn't guilty of creating the situation where the killing of Trayvon became a potential outcome. Had Zimmerman not got out of the car, had Zimmerman not been carrying a loaded gun, would Trayvon be alive or dead? Yes/No

The facts do not suggest otherwise.... Lord Heavens.
Even a Jury didn't think the facts suggested otherwise.

And Zimmerman just as easily could have been dead if he hadn't had a gun, YES or NO???

Also, do you even know what "manslaughter" is? Why don't you look it up.
Because it's the exact thing you are describing. It's negligent death. Meaning, even if the death was an "accident", ones actions leading up to the death "caused" the death, because they were negligent.

It's like when you are driving a car, but doing so too fast, or being drunk, and you kill someone.
You can be convicted of Manslaughter.

In other words, the very thing you're claiming Zimmerman was also found NOT GUILTY on.

Zimmerman, up to the point he left the car, acted completely properly. When he left the car, against police advice, he precipitated a chain of events that led to a death.

That is your OPINION.... That is not a legally or morally actionable act.
Again, if Trayvon had been a criminal, the police would have given him a medal for doing his citizen duty and preventing a crime.

Can your brain not understand the difference???

How do you know it didn't require violence? You're walking home and you are approached by an unidentified stranger with a loaded gun, I'd say violence is definitely an option. Trayvon might have felt he was about to be mugged or killed (he was right!) and so reacted to try and protect himself.

What do you mean "how do I know"? The simple facts of the event. The very reason the cops let him go and he wasn't charged in the first place.

Further, you're again adding facts that are contrary to the facts.
Zimmerman did not "approach" Trayvon, he was keeping an eye from a distance. According to the recordings and Zimmerman's testimony, Trayvon approached him.
Further, Trayvon didn't know Zimmerman had a gun.

A person standing there making no threatening action or words is not actionable legally or morally to "assault" someone.

Further, again according to the facts Trayvon came back after going to his home already, thus you can't claim at all he was "afraid" of anything. Normal people go into their home and call 911 if they are concerned about a suspicious character. Trayvon didn't want the white cracka looking at him funny, and he wanted to teach him a lesson like the bad homeboy he was.

That's what happened, those are the facts.

You're the one having comprehension challenges....again.

Nope, you are again..... You have to lie about the facts, make up facts, and misrepresent the law and moral obligations in order to claim Zimmerman the guilty party. That makes you with the comprehension problems.

[Guest]

Why are you so rude?

Because you people are so rude. And I attack rudeness.

Actually, he did. If he hadn't the two wouldn't have come into contact and the events would not have happened.

No he didn't.... Trayvon confronted him by going home and them coming back and jumping Zimmerman, that's what happened according to the recordings etc.

Zimmerman was keeping an eye out from a distance, that's not "confronting" dork.

On the evening of February 26, 2012, Zimmerman observed Martin as he returned to the Twin Lakes housing community after having walked to a nearby convenience store.[67] At the time, Zimmerman was driving through the neighborhood on a personal errand.[68]

Zimmerman call to police

7:09:34 PM, February 26, 2012
Problems playing this file? See media help.
At approximately 7:09 PM,[Note 4] Zimmerman called the Sanford police non-emergency number to report what he considered a suspicious person in the Twin Lakes community.[70] Zimmerman stated, "We've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy."[32] He described an unknown male "just walking around looking about" in the rain and said, "This guy looks like he is up to no good or he is on drugs or something."[71] Zimmerman reported that the person had his hand in his waistband and was walking around looking at homes.[72] On the recording, Zimmerman is heard saying, "these assholes, they always get away."[73][74]
About two minutes into the call, Zimmerman said, "he's running".[13] The dispatcher asked, "He's running? Which way is he running?"[75] Noises on the tape at this point have been interpreted by some media outlets as the sound of a car door chime, possibly indicating Zimmerman opened his car door.[76] Zimmerman followed Martin, eventually losing sight of him.[13] The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following him. When Zimmerman answered, "yeah", the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman responded, "Okay."[77] Zimmerman asked that police call him upon their arrival so he could provide his location.[13] Zimmerman ended the call at 7:15 p.m.[13]
After Zimmerman ended his call with police, a violent encounter took place between Martin and Zimmerman, which ended when Zimmerman fatally shot Martin 70 yards (64 m) from the rear door of the townhouse where Martin was staying.[78][Note 5]

Where, in the facts, does it support that Trayvon went home and then came back out to confront Zimmerman?
Where, in the facts, does it support that Zimmerman was following from a distance?

[_Bazooka]

<snip>

ldsfaqs, in summary, you are stating you believe what Zimmerman stated happened.

That's fine, but you only have one side of the story, the other guy isn't here to tell his side of the story.
"I was being followed by this really dodgy looking dude who I think was carrying a gun. I thought he was going to rob me when he approached so I defended myself. He then pulled a gun and was going to shoot me. I tried to wrestle the gun off him and it went off accidentally and ended up killing him."

Now what?

Zimmerman shot him 70 yards away from his house. He got out of his vehicle and followed him. Regardless of the trial outcome:

If Zimmerman had stayed in his car, would Trayvon still be alive? Yes/No
(You won't answer this because it doesn't suit what you want to believe)

[_EAllusion]

Even a Jury didn't think the facts suggested otherwise.

Half the jury wanted to convict him of a crime. Clearly it's not that simple.

[_ldsfaqs]

Where, in the facts, does it support that Trayvon went home and then came back out to confront Zimmerman?
Where, in the facts, does it support that Zimmerman was following from a distance?

The Audio recordings.... I said it a couple of times if you had been paying attention.
The alternate juror also mentioned it in his interview.

[_ldsfaqs]

Bazooka.... I've answered the question several times, and I've debunked your "logic" behind the question several times and several ways.

It is YOU who only see what you want to see. Your question is irrelevant, and I've given you examples of why it's irrelvant.

Bottom line is Trayvon assaulted Zimmerman, and THAT was the CAUSE of his death.
No other fantasy you claim changes that simple fact. Trayvon was responsible for that, not Zimmerman.

[_cinepro]

I posted this in the other thread, but it's a great explanation of the jury instructions and whether or not they relate to "Stand Your Ground" laws:

http://jonathanturley.org/2013/07/20/th ... man-trial/

[_Bazooka]

Where, in the facts, does it support that Trayvon went home and then came back out to confront Zimmerman?
Where, in the facts, does it support that Zimmerman was following from a distance?

The Audio recordings.... I said it a couple of times if you had been paying attention.
The alternate juror also mentioned it in his interview.

Who was speaking on the Audio recordings?

[_Bazooka]

It is YOU who only see what you want to see. Your question is irrelevant, and I've given you examples of why it's irrelvant.

My question "If Zimmerman had stayed in his car, as instructed, would Trayvon still be alive? Yes/No" is most definitely relevant.

The answer is obviously "Yes".
What was the risk factor had Zimmerman stayed in his car?
Well, history tells us that a house may have been burgled. But police were already on their way. Zimmerman didn't need to do anything more. He chose to get out of the car, he chose to carry a loaded weapon, he chose to place himself in a position where a confrontation was a possibility. Trayvon did nothing to precipitate Zimmerman's actions that went beyond ringing it in to the police.

So, is a kid ending up dead an acceptable collateral damage in the protection of that community? Yes/No

If No, what should the community where Trayvon was killed do now to prevent this type of thing happening again?
What should Zimmerman learn from this episode?