Did TM have a right to feel afraid?

[_beastie]

Not that I recall. The only one I remember that I imagine you would bring up was the one that Sharpton got involved with, the Tawny something case. Maybe they're the same case. I don't know nor do I care, because it has no relevance to this case.

by the way, for those of you who wanted me to respond to the Duke case, which I didn't even remember until ajax shared more details, I want to point out that I brought up the most infamous case of an African American making up charges against white people. So if you're telling yourselves that I have only supported TM in this case because he's black, and being a liberal, I'd always take the black person's side, you're full of s***.

[_beastie]

I didn't know you needed a right to feel afraid.

I didn't realize I needed to explain common idioms to you. When people say things like "you have a right to feel angry", they're not talking about a legal or constitutional right of some sort. They're saying that you have a legitimate reason to be angry. Hope this helps.

Perhaps Beastie you'd like Ben Carson's comment that said that in the ghetto it's more unnerving when someone is following you. Perhaps that initiated a fight for flight response. I still don't see how that gives him the right to punch someone for following him. Yes you're right that I don't know those facts for sure. But we had a jury trial. The facts were presented and it seems to me that the jury believed GZ enough that they didn't convict him.

Yes, they did believe him. Like some of you all, they disregarded the testimony of Rachel Jeantel. I'd like to know why.

There's a lesson to take from the Duke rape case. While I thought Nifong deserved to be disbarred and that Crystal Mangum essentially got away with bearing false witness and making a false police report, the lacrosse players shared some of the blame for that incident. I don't think they raped her. I just think that while legal it was foolish to hire a stripper. When you lie with the pigs bad things can happen. Part of taking responsibility for your life is to not get in those situations. TM could have acted differently to help himself. GZ could have done a lot differently and isn't totally blameless. I'm afraid we all could have helped the situation. Yet instead of letting it go, we continue to pour gasoline on a fire that was started essentially because of a misunderstanding between two punks. They blew it out of proportion. And now the nation continues to escalate it even more.

Well, that is a lesson to be learned to be certain. I'm still not certain why you made a big deal of me not recognizing the case when you referred to it the first time.

[_cinepro]

Yes, they did believe him. Like some of you all, they disregarded the testimony of Rachel Jeantel. I'd like to know why.

I didn't hear much of Jeantel's testimony. What did she say that should have altered the outcome of the case?

[_beastie]

Yes, they did believe him. Like some of you all, they disregarded the testimony of Rachel Jeantel. I'd like to know why.

I didn't hear much of Jeantel's testimony. What did she say that should have altered the outcome of the case?

I think the most important part of her testimony was that TM's last words were "get off, get off". That indicates that GZ was the aggressor.

by the way, I listed the lies that RJ and GZ each told, respectively, on the "TM was a racist" thread.

Now I'm even more curious as to why you didn't put much stock in her testimony, of which you didn't hear much.

[_ldsfaqs]

I think the most important part of her testimony was that TM's last words were "get off, get off". That indicates that GZ was the aggressor.

by the way, I listed the lies that RJ and GZ each told, respectively, on the "TM was a racist" thread.

Now I'm even more curious as to why you didn't put much stock in her testimony, of which you didn't hear much.

Yet other witnesses clearly claim that Trayvon was the one on top. Clearly she lied. And if she wasn't, during such a struggle she clearly wouldn't have been able to tell who's voice she heard because the phone wouldn't have been close to either voice.

[_beastie]

I guess I'll never know why cinepro and others don't "put much stock in" RJ's testimony. I'm going to post here what I posted on the "cracker" thread.

RJ told two lies. She lied about her age in the hopes that, if she were a minor, she wouldn't have to get involved in the case. She lied about why she didn't go to the funeral. She claimed she was in the hospital, but really didn't want to see the body.

That's it for her list of lies. She gave very reasonable explanations for those lies, and neither of the lies were relevant to her testimony of the events of that night.

Here's a list of the lies GZ has told. Note how many are directly involved in the events of the case.

1. GZ lied about how much money they’d raised in donations, and tried to transfer the money to his wife to avoid detection.
2. GZ told the cops that he had a clean record when he did not.
3. When GZ was booked, he said he’d never been part of a pretrial diversion program before, when he had.
4. GZ later claimed he didn’t realize how young TM was, but in his 911 call he said TM was in his late teens.
5. GZ claimed he’d never heard of SYG when he was an A student in a recent course that dealt with the topic repeatedly.
6. GZ claimed that TM punched him 25 times, and beat his head against the sidewalk 25 times. Even his own defense attorney admitted he “exaggerated”. In other words, he lied.
7. Zimmerman turned over what he claimed was his only passport. It was later discovered he had a second one.
8. Zimmerman told his friend that TM actually had the gun in his hands, and GZ had to “break his grip” on the gun to get it back.
9. Zimmerman claimed TM circled his vehicle in a threatening manner, but never mentioned this to the police while actually talking to them that night.
10. GZ claimed that TM was straddling him, legs at his armpit, pinning his arms, pinning him to the ground, while holding a hand over his nose and mouth. At that moment, TM saw the gun, which was hidden in an internal holster behind GZ’s back – which was pinned to the ground – and reached to get it. Somehow, GZ was then able to free his own arms and get the gun himself.
11. GZ claimed that TM jumped out of bushes at him. There were no bushes.
12. GZ claimed he got out of his truck because he didn't know the address of his location. There are three streets in his neighborhood. He's lived there for years and walked the streets often.

Once again, RJ's testimony was that the last words she heard on the phone call with TM was "get off, get off". This clearly indicates that GZ was the initial aggressor. GZ's claim is that TM circled back around and jumped him suddenly with a sucker punch.

Why do you believe GZ and disregard RJ? It's a question I'd like to ask the jury, too.

And another question I keep asking: if the truth were sufficient to establish self-defense, why did GZ tell so many lies?

[_ldsfaqs]

Beastie..... You keep posting that list as if it's the simple truth and facts. It's not.

Basically every one of those statements, more information, facts and context debunks the claim.
So, you're doing nothing different than what your anti-mormonism does, "quote" things and then you THINK you are actually telling the truth, when you're not.

[_Bazooka]

Beastie..... You keep posting that list as if it's the simple truth and facts. It's not.

Basically every one of those statements, more information, facts and context debunks the claim.
So, you're doing nothing different than what your anti-mormonism does, "quote" things and then you THINK you are actually telling the truth, when you're not.

Go on then, for each lie that beastie claims GZ told, show us that he didn't.

[_ldsfaqs]

Beastie..... You keep posting that list as if it's the simple truth and facts. It's not.

Basically every one of those statements, more information, facts and context debunks the claim.
So, you're doing nothing different than what your anti-mormonism does, "quote" things and then you THINK you are actually telling the truth, when you're not.

Go on then, for each lie that beastie claims GZ told, show us that he didn't.

Many of them have been debunked already in our discussions.
And I don't have the time or interest to go through each one.

But, I will take the time and show the falsehood of #12....

Zimmerman is recorded on the phone with Dispatch that he didn't know all streets he was at or looking at, so trying to claim he was "lying" after the fact when he told his story other times is a LIE.

It's further a lie because I've lived in many neighborhoods for a few years, walked them also, and I also still didn't know the names of most of the streets I walked. I only knew my street and maybe a connecting street or two, that's it. Thus, it's not unreasonable at all that Zimmerman wouldn't know all the street names in his community, especially when on the phone call he specifically states there's no ready street sign at his location or the location Trayvon was walking.

Now, do you see how people like Beastie lie when even the phone call debunks their claims???

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Anyone know the percentages of Black men killed by other Black men versus Black men killed by other races, in this case specifically, White or Hispanic men? If I'm not mistaken they're phenomenally different. If that's the case...

I proffer TM probably wasn't afraid of GZ, especially once he surmised he was Hispanic. I proffer TM was angry at GZ, and thus backtracked, ambushed him, and attacked him. I don't believe fear played a role in TM's decision making processes, whatsoever.

Did TM have a right to feel afraid of GZ? Meh. Maybe not since GZ was much less of an existential threat to TM than had GZ been a Black man following TM around.

- Doc