LittleNipper wrote:I don't believe you understand any of it.
You would be wrong.
LittleNipper wrote:Especially, if you had it explained to you through Mormon dogma.
No, originally it was explained to me by a pastor who was in the same graduate program in biblical studies as me at an Evangelical university. I've since studied it on my own through a number of different Protestant publications. I have to tell everyone this at some point or another: stop making assumptions about what I believe or know, or how/why I believe or know it. You will be wrong every time.
LittleNipper wrote:And The Rev. Graham is hardly a person anyone should call silly.
And Billy Graham has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the paper to which you linked.
LittleNipper wrote:A Fundamental Dispensational view is hardly shallow. And if you think so, please read the paper above and fully consider the dynamic ramifications.
Again not the issue.
This is the third request. Your keep dodging the question.
LN please distinguish between the verification process you use (the comforter) and the one Mormons use, which is that same comforter.
I assume since you're dodging the question that you can't.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
LittleNipper wrote:A Fundamental Dispensational view is hardly shallow. And if you think so, please read the paper above and fully consider the dynamic ramifications.
Again not the issue.
This is the third request. Your keep dodging the question.
LN please distinguish between the verification process you use (the comforter) and the one Mormons use, which is that same comforter.
I assume since you're dodging the question that you can't.
One distinguishing difference is that not one Mormon has ever talked to Jesus Christ during Jesus' life here on Earth. Another difference is that Jesus' disciples/Apostles did not contradict the Bible. Yet another difference is that these early Christian disciples were helped to remember exactly what Jesus had already taught them face to face during His ministry while with them here on earth. Now, I will not answering you again on this particular question. These three reasons bear witness against ALL Mormon "prophets." I pray to the Father through Jesus for understanding of what God has already written in His inerrant Word. And the Holy Spirit shows me in God's perfect timing (for me) through the Bible/by God's Word what God means. Mormon prophets pray for ADDITIONAL revelations that they control and dispense at will. Mormons condemn the idea of biblical inerrancy. So, we have a 4th distinguishing difference between my/Christian verification process and Mormonism.
LittleNipper wrote:I don't believe you understand any of it.
You would be wrong.
LittleNipper wrote:Especially, if you had it explained to you through Mormon dogma.
No, originally it was explained to me by a pastor who was in the same graduate program in biblical studies as me at an Evangelical university. I've since studied it on my own through a number of different Protestant publications. I have to tell everyone this at some point or another: stop making assumptions about what I believe or know, or how/why I believe or know it. You will be wrong every time.
LittleNipper wrote:And The Rev. Graham is hardly a person anyone should call silly.
And Billy Graham has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the paper to which you linked.
Billy Graham is a dispensationalist and the University in question also holds to that view of scripture. Tell me what you believe and I will not have to assume from what you imply. What denomination do you visit? Let's begin with that... If you cannot tell me what you believe, I'll have to refrain from speaking to you, as I have been religiously very open.
LittleNipper wrote:Billy Graham is a dispensationalist and the University in question also holds to that view of scripture.
Still makes no sense.
LittleNipper wrote:Tell me what you believe and I will not have to assume from what you imply.
You have no reason to be making assumptions about me at all. Just deal with the discussion and don't worry about what I believe.
LittleNipper wrote:What denomination do you visit? Let's begin with that... If you cannot tell me what you believe, I'll have to refrain from speaking to you, as I have been religiously very open.
No, you've not been open at all. For instance, you've completely ignored the other comments of mine above. This entire thread you've just taken whatever opportunities you could to spout your dogmatism at me. I'm not here to argue about dogmatism, though, I'm here to tell you what the Bible does and doesn't say. If you can't engage that discussion, that's a you problem.
Deuteronomy 4:1-49 God says not to add to or subtract from the commands God gives --- simply obey them. At Baal-peor, the Lord God destroyed everyone who had worshiped Baal, the god of Peor. When Israel obeys the commands completely, they display wisdom and intelligence among the surrounding nations. When others hear all these decrees, they will exclaim, ‘How wise and prudent are the people of that great nation!’ What great nation has decrees and regulations as righteous and fair as this body of instructions. They are to be careful never to forget what they have seen. They are not to let the following memories escape --- be sure to pass them on to their children and grandchildren. They are never to forget the day when Moses stood before the Lord God at Mount Sinai, where he told Moses, ‘Summon the people before me, and I will personally instruct them. Then they will learn to fear me as long as they live, and they will teach their children to fear me also.’
They came near and stood at the foot of the mountain, while flames from the mountain shot into the sky. The mountain was shrouded in black clouds and deep darkness. The Lord spoke to from the heart of the fire. They heard the sound of his words but didn’t see his form; there was only a voice. He proclaimed his covenant—the Ten Commandments—which he commanded them to keep, and which he wrote on two stone tablets. It was at that time that the Lord commanded Moses to teach his decrees and regulations so they would obey them in the land they are about to enter and occupy.
But be very careful! They did not see the Lord’s form on the day he spoke from the heart of the fire at Mount Sinai. Make no idol in any form—whether of a man or a woman, an animal on the ground, a bird in the sky, a small animal that scurries along the ground, or a fish in the deepest sea. When looking up into the sky and seeing the sun, moon, and stars—all the forces of heaven—don’t be seduced into worshiping them. The Lord gave them to all the peoples of the earth. The Lord rescued them from the iron-smelting furnace of Egypt in order to make them his very own people and his special possession.
The Lord was angry with Moses vowing that Moses would not cross the Jordan River into the good land given as Israel's special possession. They must be careful not to break the covenant the Lord God has made with Israel. They are not to make idols of any shape or form, for the Lord God has forbidden this. The Lord God is a devouring fire; he is a jealous God. Moses calls on heaven and earth as witnesses, that if Israel breaks God's covenant, they will quickly disappear from the land they are crossing the Jordan to occupy. the Lord will scatter them among the nations, where only a few will survive.
There, in a foreign land, they will worship idols made from wood and stone—gods that neither see nor hear nor eat nor smell. But from there they will search again for the Lord God. And if they search for him with heart and soul, they will find him. In the distant future, when they are suffering all these things, Israel will finally return to the Lord God and listen to Him. For the Lord God is a merciful God; he will not abandon or destroy Israel or forget the solemn covenant made with their ancestors.
Now search all of history, from the time God created people on the earth until now, and search from one end of the heavens to the other. Has anything as great as this ever been seen or heard before? Has any nation ever heard the voice of God speaking from fire and survived? Has any other god dared to take a nation for himself out of another nation by means of trials, miraculous signs, wonders, war, a strong hand, a powerful arm, and terrifying acts? NO! God showed these things so they would know that the Lord is God and there exists no others. God let Israel hear his voice from heaven so he could instruct. He let them see his great fire here on earth so he could speak from it. God loved their ancestors, he chose to bless their descendants, and he personally brought them out of Egypt with a great display of power. He drove out nations far greater and give Israel their land as a special possession.
Again, remember this and keep it firmly in mind: The Lord is God both in heaven and on earth, and there is not any other in existence. If they obey all the decrees and commands given, all will be well with them and their children. God is giving these instructions so they will enjoy a long life in the land the Lord God is giving for all time.
Then Moses set apart three cities of refuge east of the Jordan River. Anyone who killed another person unintentionally, without previous hostility, could flee there to live in safety. These were the cities: Bezer on the wilderness plateau for the tribe of Reuben; Ramoth in Gilead for the tribe of Gad; Golan in Bashan for the tribe of Manasseh.
Israel camped in the valley near Beth-peor east of the Jordan River. This land was formerly occupied by the Amorites under King Sihon, who ruled from Heshbon. But Moses and the Israelites destroyed him and his people when they came up from Egypt. Israel took possession of his land and that of King Og of Bashan—the two Amorite kings east of the Jordan. So Israel conquered the entire area from Aroer at the edge of the Arnon Gorge all the way to Mount Sirion, also called Mount Hermon. And they conquered the eastern bank of the Jordan River as far south as the Dead Sea, below the slopes of Pisgah.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 `And now, Israel, hearken unto the statutes, and unto the judgments which I am teaching you to do, so that ye live, and have gone in, and possessed the land which Jehovah God of your fathers is giving to you.
2 Ye do not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor diminish from it, to keep the commands of Jehovah your God which I am commanding you.
3 `Your eyes are seeing that which Jehovah hath done in Baal-Peor, for every man who hath gone after Baal-Peor, Jehovah thy God hath destroyed him from thy midst;
4 and ye who are cleaving to Jehovah your God, [are] alive, all of you, to-day.
5 `See, I have taught you statutes and judgments, as Jehovah my God hath commanded me -- to do so, in the midst of the land whither ye are going in to possess it;
6 and ye have kept and done [them] (for it [is] your wisdom and your understanding) before the eyes of the peoples who hear all these statutes, and they have said, Only, a people wise and understanding [is] this great nation.
7 `For which [is] the great nation that hath God near unto it, as Jehovah our God, in all we have called unto him?
8 and which [is] the great nation which hath righteous statutes and judgments according to all this law which I am setting before you to-day?
9 `Only, take heed to thyself, and watch thy soul exceedingly, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they turn aside from thy heart, all days of thy life; and thou hast made them known to thy sons, and to thy sons' sons.
10 `The day when thou hast stood before Jehovah thy God in Horeb -- in Jehovah's saying unto me, Assemble to Me the people, and I cause them to hear My words, so that they learn to fear Me all the days that they are alive on the ground, and their sons they teach; --
11 and ye draw near and stand under the mountain, and the mountain is burning with fire unto the heart of the heavens -- darkness, cloud, yea, thick darkness:
12 `And Jehovah speaketh unto you out of the midst of the fire; a voice of words ye are hearing and a similitude ye are not seeing, only a voice;
13 and He declareth to you His covenant, which He hath commanded you to do, the Ten Matters, and He writeth them upon two tables of stone.
14 `And me hath Jehovah commanded at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, for your doing them in the land whither ye are passing over to possess it;
15 and ye have been very watchful of your souls, for ye have not seen any similitude in the day of Jehovah's speaking unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire,
16 lest ye do corruptly, and have made to you a graven image, a similitude of any figure, a form of male or female --
17 a form of any beast which [is] in the earth -- a form of any winged bird which flieth in the heavens --
18 a form of any creeping thing on the ground -- a form of any fish which [is] in the waters under the earth;
19 `And lest thou lift up thine eyes towards the heavens, and hast seen the sun, and the moon, and the stars, all the host of the heavens, and thou hast been forced, and hast bowed thyself to them, and served them, which Jehovah thy God hath apportioned to all the peoples under the whole heavens.
20 `And you hath Jehovah taken, and He is bringing you out from the iron furnace, from Egypt, to be to Him for a people -- an inheritance, as [at] this day.
21 `And Jehovah hath shewed himself wroth with me because of your words, and sweareth to my not passing over the Jordan, and to my not going in unto the good land which Jehovah thy God is giving to thee -- an inheritance;
22 for I am dying in this land; I am not passing over the Jordan, and ye are passing over, and have possessed this good land.
23 `Take heed to yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of Jehovah your God, which He hath made with you, and have made to yourselves a graven image, a similitude of anything [concerning] which Jehovah thy God hath charged thee:
24 for Jehovah thy God is a fire consuming -- a zealous God.
25 `When thou begettest sons and sons' sons, and ye have become old in the land, and have done corruptly, and have made a graven image, a similitude of anything, and have done the evil thing in the eyes of Jehovah, to provoke Him to anger: --
26 I have caused to testify against you this day the heavens and the earth, that ye do perish utterly hastily from off the land whither ye are passing over the Jordan to possess it; ye do not prolong days upon it, but are utterly destroyed;
27 and Jehovah hath scattered you among the peoples, and ye have been left few in number among the nations, whither Jehovah leadeth you,
28 and ye have served there gods, work of man's hands, wood and stone, which see not, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
29 `And -- ye have sought from thence Jehovah thy God, and hast found, when thou seekest Him with all thy heart, and with all thy soul,
30 in distress [being] to thee, and all these things have found thee, in the latter end of the days, and thou hast turned back unto Jehovah thy God, and hast hearkened to His voice;
31 for a merciful God [is] Jehovah thy God; He doth not fail thee, nor destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers, which He hath sworn to them.
32 `For, ask, I pray thee, at the former days which have been before thee, from the day that God prepared man on the earth, and from the [one] end of the heavens even unto the [other] end of the heavens, whether there hath been as this great thing -- or hath been heard like it?
33 Hath a people heard the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, thou -- and doth live?
34 Or hath God tried to go in to take to Himself, a nation from the midst of a nation, by trials, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a strong hand, and by a stretched-out arm, and by great terrors -- according to all that Jehovah your God hath done to you, in Egypt, before your eyes?
35 Thou, thou hast been shewn [it], to know that Jehovah He [is] God; there is none else besides Him.
36 `From the heavens He hath caused thee to hear His voice, to instruct thee, and on earth He hath shewed thee His great fire, and His words thou hast heard out of the midst of the fire.
37 `And because that He hath loved thy fathers, He doth also fix on their seed after them, and doth bring thee out, in His presence, by His great power, from Egypt:
38 to dispossess nations greater and stronger than thou, from thy presence, to bring thee in to give to thee their land -- an inheritance, as [at] this day.
39 `And thou hast known to-day, and hast turned [it] back unto thy heart, that Jehovah He [is] God, in the heavens above, and on the earth beneath -- there is none else;
40 and thou hast kept His statutes and His commands which I am commanding thee to-day, so that it is well to thee, and to thy sons after thee, and so that thou prolongest days on the ground which Jehovah thy God is giving to thee -- all the days.'
41 Then Moses separateth three cities beyond the Jordan, towards the sun-rising,
42 for the fleeing thither of the man-slayer, who slayeth his neighbour unknowingly, and he is not hating him heretofore, and he hath fled unto one of these cities, and he hath lived:
43 Bezer, in the wilderness, in the land of the plain, of the Reubenite; and Ramoth, in Gilead, of the Gadite; and Golan, in Bashan, of the Manassahite.
44 And this [is] the law which Moses hath set before the sons of Israel;
45 these [are] the testimonies, and the statutes, and the judgments, which Moses hath spoken unto the sons of Israel, in their coming out of Egypt,
46 beyond the Jordan, in the valley over-against Beth-Peor, in the land of Sihon, king of the Amorite, who is dwelling in Heshbon, whom Moses and the sons of Israel have smitten, in their coming out of Egypt,
47 and they possess his land, and the land of Og king of Bashan, two kings of the Amorite who [are] beyond the Jordan, [towards] the sun-rising;
48 from Aroer, which [is] by the edge of the brook Arnon, even unto mount Sion, which [is] Hermon --
49 and all the plain beyond the Jordan eastward, even unto the sea of the plain, under the springs of Pisgah.
2 Ye do not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor diminish from it, to keep the commands of Jehovah your God which I am commanding you.
Deuteronomy 4:2 (NKJV)
2 You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
Revelation 22:18-19 (NKJV)
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
LDS Apologist Jeff Lindsay wrote about Deuteronomy 4:2 and Revelation 22:18-19. Here is his commentary and interpretation of these two Scriptural Passages:
The prohibition against adding or subtracting from the word of God actually goes all the back to the time of Moses, who wrote the following in Deuteronomy 4:2:
"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it...."
In Rev. 22:18-19, John echoed the words of Moses as he concluded writing the Book of Revelation:
"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
Moses and John were absolutely correct: no man has authority to add or subtract from the word of God. But Deut. 4:2 did not keep Moses from writing additional chapters, nor did it prohibit Isaiah, Malachi, Matthew, Mark, Paul, and even John from writing later scripture as directed by God. It did not mean that God could give no more revelation or scripture, but that the inspired words of God given to his apostles and prophets should not be altered by men.
As one simple illustration, consider the writings of Jeremiah as recorded by Jeremiah's scribe, Baruch. See Jeremiah 36, where we learn that Baruch wrote all the words from Jeremiah that were recorded in a book (vss. 4, 17, 18) Unfortunately, King Jehoiakim of Judah burned the book that contained the words of Jeremiah (vss. 21-25). The Lord commanded Jeremiah to prepare his document again, writing "all the former words that were in the first roll" (vs. 28). In verse 32, Jeremiah then commanded his scribe, Baruch, to write on another roll the words of Jeremiah, "and there were added besides unto them many like words." Many like words added? This doesn't sound like original dictation straight from the mouth of God, perfectly preserved and unchangeable. Prophets speak or dictate by inspiration, but there can be later changes and additions.
Robert Boylan kindly sent me further information on this topic in 2006:
You might also like to know that Jeremiah 36:32 is not the only example of prophets revising their prior revelations. Moses revised the Decalogue (Ten Commandments), as seen when one examines Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5. In addition, Isaiah 36-39 is a revision of 2 Kings 18:13 - 20:19, and Jeremiah 52 is a revision of 2 Kings 24-25. Joseph Smith's actions, contra critics (e.g., chapter 3 of "Mormonism: Shadow or Reality?") are entirely consistent with the actions of Biblical Prophets.
Read the text carefully of Revelation 22:18-19 and ponder what John is talking about. At the time, there was no Bible as we know it. The new Christians had the Septuagint (which included the Apocrypha) and scattered writings of some of the apostles, but there had not yet been any known attempt to establish a New Testament canon or to bring the Gospels and epistles into a single volume. John, who was in exile on the Isle of Patmos, is obviously referring to the newly written text before him when he speaks of "this book," the Book of Revelation. He refers to the unique contents of his book: its prophecies, its descriptions of plagues, its discussion of the holy city, and urges that no one change what he has written. Even though the Book of Revelation has been placed last in our Bible, it was not necessarily the last book written, but may have preceded other writings of John himself by a couple of years. In fact, many Christian canons over the centuries did not include the Book of Revelation at all, and even Martin Luther questioned its status. The first church council that listed most of the canonical books in our present Old and New Testaments, the Council of Laodicea that met in A.D. 363, still did not include the Apocalypse of Saint John [Bernstein, p.5]. The common idea that this was the last book added to an existing canon of New Testament scripture by John is erroneous, as is the idea that John meant that there could never be any more scripture.
Latter-day Saints fully agree with John: no man should change what God has spoken. However, God has the authority to speak what and when He wants. God spoke to other prophets after Moses and many of their divinely commissioned writings have been preserved in the Bible. God also speaks today to living apostles and prophets in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and we should be willing to accept those whom God has sent and hear their inspired words.
When God speaks to prophets, they write words that become scripture. Moses, Isaiah, Matthew, Luke, John, and many others all added scripture. One of the surest signs that the Church of Jesus Christ has really been restored is that new scripture has been added! The Jews at the time of Christ claimed to revere dead prophets but rejected living ones and rejected newly added scripture. They were in apostasy. Those who reject new prophets and new scripture from God in our day are likewise in apostasy and need to repent and come unto Christ more fully.
To the evangelical ministers who rail against us for "adding to the word," I am tempted ask - with tongue in cheek - by what authority they use a Bible from which many books of scripture accepted by the early Christians have been subtracted? Where is the Book of Enoch, the Shepherd of Hermas, the Apocryphal writings of the Septuagint, Psalm 151 of the Septuagint, or other missing scriptures? They may insist that their Bible is complete and perfect, but where is the missing scripture from which Paul quotes the words of Christ in Acts 20:35, "It is more blessed to give than to receive"? Where is the scripture that contains the prophecy that Christ would be a Nazarene, which is cited as fulfilled in Matt. 2:23? If God restored those missing writings, would our critics accept the new scripture with gratitude, or reject it because it offends their sensibilities? Ask this question and you may be surprised, as I have been, at the answer. One devout man told me that he would have to reject any new writing, no matter how authentic, even if it had been written by an ancient apostle under inspiration from God, was perfectly preserved and unmistakably contained directly quoted words of Christ, because to admit the possibility of additional scripture would mean that we could not accept the existing Bible as the perfect, complete, and infallible final authority. (I almost wonder if some people worship the Bible rather than God.) On the other hand, Latter-day Saints are taught to anxiously accept every word that comes from God, and to look forward to many future revelations and the discovery of other ancient volumes of sacred scripture. The word of God is not finished yet!
By the way, some modern Christians seem to think that the Apocrypha was never seriously accepted by Christians of the past, in spite of being included in their canons. However, "the conciliar decree De canonicis scriptures, issued on 8 April 1546 by Session IV of the Catholic Council of Trent, declares all who do not accept the Apocrypha as Christian scripture - in other words, the Protestants - to be anathema or accursed" [Peterson and Ricks, p. 118]. If Latter-day Saints are to be condemned for adding to scripture, can the Protestants justify themselves in subtracting from scripture? But clearly there is not yet a single, universal, indisputable standard for what the Christian canon should be, so I suggest we stop the condemnation and allow different groups to use different canons. The ideal, of course, is that we would "all come to a unity of the faith" - a process which requires receiving and following revelation from God (Eph. 4:11-14) and accepting His inspired additions to scripture.
Remember, the Bible says nothing about itself to imply that the canon is complete. As one of many passages implying incompleteness, consider John 21:25, which states:
"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."
John understood that there could have been many other books written to describe all the words and deeds of Christ. What he and others offered was limited to a minute fraction of what could have been written. It is a purely human assumption that all of the truly important material has been recorded and preserved, and an even more ridiculous assumption that we have no need for anything more. We must live by every word of God (Matt. 4:4), and as long as He lives, He will have words to speak, if only we are willing to listen. As we read in Acts 11:26,27, one of the only places in the Bible that uses the word "Christian," the people that were first called Christians had the benefit of having prophets among them. Doesn't it make sense that modern Christians ought to accept every word of God, including those of modern revealed scripture and those provided through God's living prophets and apostles?
Last edited by MSNbot Media on Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
35 Thou, thou hast been shewn [it], to know that Jehovah He [is] God; there is none else besides Him.
Deuteronomy 4:35 (NKJV)
35 To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord Himself is God; there is none other besides Him.
Here is Evangelical Apologist James White's interpretation of Deuteronomy 4:35:
16. Deuteronomy 4:35: "Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him."
Comment: Though it is important, especially in this series of verses, to stick with the KJV, please change "shewed" to at least "showed" if not "shown." Thank you.
This section of verses introduces an aspect of witnessing that few have undertaken to use very often. We at Alpha and Omega Ministries have found it to be helpful, and so I share it with you. In Mormonism, the two Hebrew words which refer to the one true God are mixed up. Mormons believe that "Elohim" (which is translated "God") is the Father, and that "Jehovah" is the Son. Now, "Jehovah" is a false pronunciation of the Hebrew word "YHWH," correctly pronounced "Yahweh." This is God's "personal" name in the Old Testament. Unlike Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons rightly believe that Jesus is Jehovah (YHWH) - unfortunately, since they miss the clear fact that there is only one God, they miss the significance of the whole thing. At any rate, in Mormonism the Father and Son are two distinct personages and two distinct gods - hence, the Bible should support this teaching. Does the Bible teach that "Elohim" and "Jehovah" are two beings?
Before we can answer that, we must figure out how to recognize the Hebrew words themselves in an English translation. A vast majority of the time, the word "God" in the English Bible is the translation of the Hebrew "Elohim." If you are in doubt about a specific passage, consult an exhaustive concordance of the Bible (such as Strong's). The way you recognize the Tetragrammaton (=YHWH) is that the English Bible will translate it "Lord" but will have the "o-r-d" in capitals, yet a smaller size. We will indicate this by typing it "LORD". Should you need to give support for this to the Mormon (which you probably will) see the Bible Dictionary in the back of the King James Version published by the Mormon Church (1979 and after), page 711, top left column (or, under "Jehovah"). This should satisfy them.
Hence, if we can find Scripture identifying Elohim as Jehovah, or Jehovah as Elohim, the Mormon teaching is in trouble, to say the least. Now, I have been kicked out of Mormon Visitor's centers for showing these verses to people they are so plain, especially to Temple Mormons. Allow me to explain. In the temple ceremony, Elohim and Jehovah appear as separate and distinct individuals. They talk with each other and interact - there is no way to confuse them. In Talmage's book Articles of Faith, pages 466-473, we have "The Father and The Son: A Doctrinal Exposition by The First Presidency and The Twelve." It clearly identifies the Father and Elohim and the Son as Jehovah. Why go into all of this? The only way Mormons can get around the fact that the Bible says Elohim is Jehovah is to deny that they really identify the Father as Elohim; "that is just a matter of convenience" is one excuse I have heard. Most Mormons won't do that - only those who know they have a real problem supporting this teaching.
Now, what does all of this have to do with this section of verses? You may have already guessed. As you look at Deuteronomy 4:35, you will notice that it says "...the LORD, he is God..." With your new knowledge, you can tell that the Hebrew text reads, "...Jehovah, he is Elohim..." Oops, the LDS church has a problem here. Now you can see the value of these verses.
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
Brackite wrote:Here is Evangelical Apologist James White's interpretation of Deuteronomy 4:35:
Oh, fun.
James White wrote: 16. Deuteronomy 4:35: "Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him."
Comment: Though it is important, especially in this series of verses, to stick with the KJV, please change "shewed" to at least "showed" if not "shown." Thank you.
"Shewed" is pronounced "showed."
James White wrote:This section of verses introduces an aspect of witnessing that few have undertaken to use very often. We at Alpha and Omega Ministries have found it to be helpful, and so I share it with you. In Mormonism, the two Hebrew words which refer to the one true God are mixed up. Mormons believe that "Elohim" (which is translated "God") is the Father, and that "Jehovah" is the Son.
Although Latter-day Saints also acknowledge that the Bible is not consistent in the referents underlying the use of each word, and elohim is a generic noun anyway, not exclusively, or even primarily, a title or name.
James White wrote:Now, "Jehovah" is a false pronunciation of the Hebrew word "YHWH," correctly pronounced "Yahweh."
Actually "Yahweh" is still just a guess. No one knows for sure how it was pronounced.
James White wrote:This is God's "personal" name in the Old Testament. Unlike Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons rightly believe that Jesus is Jehovah (YHWH) - unfortunately, since they miss the clear fact that there is only one God, they miss the significance of the whole thing. At any rate, in Mormonism the Father and Son are two distinct personages and two distinct gods - hence, the Bible should support this teaching. Does the Bible teach that "Elohim" and "Jehovah" are two beings?
Well, in many places it teaches that Yahweh and El were two distinct beings. Since elohim and el are just the generic terms meaning "god," and can be used as a title or as a class noun, it's not as simple as "Elohim/El and Yahweh are two beings."
James White wrote:Before we can answer that, we must figure out how to recognize the Hebrew words themselves in an English translation.
Yes, because if centuries of scholarship has taught us anything, it's that people who don't know Hebrew or Greek can arrive at accurate conclusions about what the Hebrew or the Greek mean through English translations. All they need is a short primer on what Hebrew words underly what English words.
James White wrote:A vast majority of the time, the word "God" in the English Bible is the translation of the Hebrew "Elohim." If you are in doubt about a specific passage, consult an exhaustive concordance of the Bible (such as Strong's). The way you recognize the Tetragrammaton (=YHWH) is that the English Bible will translate it "Lord" but will have the "o-r-d" in capitals, yet a smaller size.
Or more succinctly, it will be in small caps.
James White wrote:We will indicate this by typing it "LORD". Should you need to give support for this to the Mormon (which you probably will)
"'Cuz Mormons are stupid."
James White wrote:see the Bible Dictionary in the back of the King James Version published by the Mormon Church (1979 and after), page 711, top left column (or, under "Jehovah"). This should satisfy them.
Hence, if we can find Scripture identifying Elohim as Jehovah, or Jehovah as Elohim, the Mormon teaching is in trouble, to say the least.
Unless, of course, (1) elohim is being used generically, or (2) the Bible is not univocal. But since we wouldn't dare even give room for such ludicrous considerations, we are safe ignoring them.
James White wrote:Now, I have been kicked out of Mormon Visitor's centers for showing these verses to people they are so plain, especially to Temple Mormons. Allow me to explain. In the temple ceremony, Elohim and Jehovah appear as separate and distinct individuals. They talk with each other and interact - there is no way to confuse them. In Talmage's book Articles of Faith, pages 466-473, we have "The Father and The Son: A Doctrinal Exposition by The First Presidency and The Twelve." It clearly identifies the Father and Elohim and the Son as Jehovah. Why go into all of this? The only way Mormons can get around the fact that the Bible says Elohim is Jehovah is to deny that they really identify the Father as Elohim; "that is just a matter of convenience" is one excuse I have heard. Most Mormons won't do that - only those who know they have a real problem supporting this teaching.
Now, what does all of this have to do with this section of verses? You may have already guessed. As you look at Deuteronomy 4:35, you will notice that it says "...the LORD, he is God..." With your new knowledge, you can tell that the Hebrew text reads, "...Jehovah, he is Elohim..." Oops, the LDS church has a problem here. Now you can see the value of these verses.
Provided you remain ignorant of the fact that elohim is a generic class noun, as James White evidently does.