Glenn Beck's Nazi Exhibit

[_Droopy]

Fascism is traditionally considered a type of right-wing authoritarian political structure with an emphasis on extreme nationalism (often called "patriotism" in America), militarism, corporatism, support of a strong police state, and veneration of state leaders when they are part of the fascist party. Categorizing it far right when, say, an antithesis of it in anarcho-capitalism is also far right has to do with the limitations of the dipole political spectrum. The extreme leftwing movement of anarcho-syndicalism has more in common with hardcore libertarians than it does Stalinism. Likewise, Stalinism has more in common with fascism than leftist communitarians. Multidimensional political spectrums do a better job capturing family resemblances of political ideologies, but that doesn't change how and why things are categorized as left or right.

1. Fascism only began to be categorized as "far right" or "right wing" after Hitler invaded the Soviet Union and the entire political dynamic changed from the point of view of the Comintern and the Western communist parties it controlled. Generations of Western and American intellectuals swallowed this Popular Front propaganda whole because it served their own ideological interests and because it was what they wanted to hear, but this idea cannot survive any actual serious study of the ideologies involved and their intellectual patrimony.

extreme nationalism (often called "patriotism" in America),

Uh...no. Again you paint yourself as a Chomskyite anti-American leftist radical with a chip on his oh so enlightened and morally superior shoulder against the United States and its historic role in the world. "Patriotism," of course, is not "nationalism" at all, in the American or generalized sense of the term, or is it (gulp!) "extreme" nationalism (which, by the way, has also imbued a number of 20th century communist revolutionary movements and characters).

There's a movement in the more authoritarian religious right sector in the United States that Droopy is a part of

CFR. Consider this a MADboard CFR, Def (even though that rule doesn't apply here). Put up or shut up.

to recast fascism as leftism given that all things "left" are bad and all things "right" are good. The irony is those are some of the most fascist members of our own society.

It was never "recast" as anything because no one on the Left in the 1930s believed that either Italian fascism or German National Socialism were anything other than forms or versions of progressive ideology and thinking. It was those authoritarian religious right wing nuts, Von Mises and Von Hayek, who, from the 30s onward, began pointing out the family resemblance between socialism, National Socialism, and fascism.

Other fundamentalist snake-handlers who have pointed this out over the last half-century or more have been Richard Pipes, Robert Conquest, William F. Buckley, Eric Voeglin, George Reisman, Balint Vazsonyi, Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn, and many other distinguished modern conservative and libertarian thinkers.

Def has just bottomed out once again and recused himself from consideration as a serious thinker on these issues.

[_Droopy]

The Nazis fought against the upcoming vaudville culture, saying it was corrupting the youth. They sought to return to Germany's glorious past. They didn't like homosexuals. I could go on, but you get the point. Philosophically, Nazis were as conservative as it gets. This is one of the reasons they didn't like the Stalin Communist government, despite the fact that many of their government policies were similiar.

The Nazis were socialists. Besides looking at their point by point plan, it's even part of their name. They are Leftwing Nationalists.

Indeed, let's revisit the actual National Socialist German Worker's Party platform, just for old time's sake:

Combines extreme nationalism, racism and some socialist concepts.

Unification of Greater Germany (Austria + Germany)
Land + expansion
Anti-Versailles - abrogation of the Treaty.
Land and territory - lebensraum.
Only a "member of the race" can be a citizen.
Anti-semitism - No Jew can be a member of the race.
Anti-foreigner - only citizens can live in Germany.
No immigration - ref. to Jews fleeing pograms.
Everyone must work.
Abolition of unearned income - "no rent-slavery".
Nationalisation of industry
Divison of profits
Extension of old age welfare.
Land reform
Death to all criminals
German law, not Roman law (anti- French Rev.)
Education to teach "the German Way"
Education of gifted children
Protection of mother and child by outlawing child labour.
Encouraging gymnastics and swimming
Formation a national army.
Duty of the state to provide for its volk.
Duty of individuals to the state

TRANSLATION OF DOCUMENT 1708-PS

Edited by: Dr. Robert Ley
Published by: Central Publishing House of the N.S.D.A.P.
Franz Eher, successor Munich

The program of the NSDAP

The program is the political foundation of the NSDAP and accordingly the primary political law of the State. It has been made brief and clear intentionally.

All legal precepts must be applied in the spirit of the party program.

Since the taking over of control, the Fuehrer has succeeded in the realization of essential portions of the Party program from the fundamentals to the detail.

The Party Program of the NSDAP was proclaimed on the 24 February 1920 by Adolf Hitler at the first large Party gathering in Munich and since that day has remained unaltered. Within the national socialist philosophy is summarized in 25 points:

1. We demand the unification of all Germans in the Greater Germany on the basis of the right of self-determination of peoples.

2. We demand equality of rights for the German people in respect to the other nations; abrogation of the peace treaties of Versailles and St. Germain.

3. We demand land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people, and colonization for our surplus population.

4. Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently no Jew can be a member of the race.

5. Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in Germany only as a guest, and must be under the authority of legislation for foreigners.

6. The right to determine matters concerning administration and law belongs only to the citizen. Therefore we demand that every public office, of any sort whatsoever, whether in the Reich, the county or municipality, be filled only by citizens. We combat the corrupting parliamentary economy, office-holding only according to party inclinations without consideration of character or abilities.

7. We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.

8. Any further immigration of non-citizens is to be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since the 2 August 1914, be forced immediately to leave the Reich.

9. All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.

10. The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all Consequently we demand:

11. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of rent-slavery.

12. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).

14. We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.

15. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.

16. We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.

17. We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.

18. We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, Schieber and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.

19. We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.

20. The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.

21. The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.

22. We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.

23. We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that: a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race: b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the State to be published. They may not be printed in the German language: c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications, or any influence on them, and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life, and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.

24. We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: common utility precedes individual utility.

25. For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.

Adolf Hitler proclaimed the following explanation for this program on the 13 April 1928:

Explanation

Regarding the false interpretations of Point 17 of the program of the NSDAP on the part of our opponents, the following definition is necessary:

"Since the NSDAP stands on the platform of private ownership it happens that the passage" gratuitous expropriation concerns only the creation of legal opportunities to expropriate if necessary, land which has been illegally acquired or is not administered from the view-point of the national welfare. This is directed primarily against the Jewish land-speculation companies.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/25points.asp

[_Droopy]

The Nazis fought against the upcoming vaudville culture, saying it was corrupting the youth.

So what? What does this have to do with anything? Socialist societies repress and severely punish virtually everything present in the constitution and the Bill of Rights that we take as standard human freedoms and rights. Tell us about all the jazz, big band swing, and rock n' roll one could avail oneself of In Soviet Russia or the Warsaw Pact states from the 30s onward, Molok? Tell us about all the movies, novels, and plays one could freely see? Shall we discuss the ultra-puritanical sexual morality featured in the official ideology of Mao's China?

They sought to return to Germany's glorious past.

Dead wrong and indicative of the degree to which you and so many other Americans have been mind arsoned by the public schools and the mainstream media. The Nazis were radicals; they sought to utterly overturn what was then traditional German culture and society and forge a totalitarian collectivist state based on absolute one-party rule, the myth of Aryan racial superiority, socialist ideas of collective, organic communitarian unity, redistribution of wealth, and in which much of traditional German culture, including the family, Christianity, and and any individual liberties not useful to the state would be crushed.

Their propagandistic use of ancient Germanic myth, symbol, and legend in their overall ideological program does not indicate they were trying to return to a mythic German past. They used that past to fire emotional and psychological passion (as Mao Tse Tung finally figured out, after attempting to utterly obliterate traditional Chines culture) but they were not trying to "return" to anything, but forge a new totalist social order like none seen before (as were the socialists in Russia).

They didn't like homosexuals.

Bosh. Significant parts of the Nazi inner circle, the SS, and other male/martial-oriented groups within Nazi politics and society were homoerotically oriented and lead, and this kind of male-bonding between males in societies grounded in conquest, heroism, pitiless cruelty, a eugenic-pragmatic mentality toward the female and the family, and totalitarian regimentation has historic precedent:

http://books.google.com/books?id=8__ma0 ... ta&f=false

I could go on, but you get the point. Philosophically, Nazis were as conservative as it gets.

You clearly don't understand the concept "conservative" in either a historic or modern 20th century sense, and from within this dense fog of educational ignorance, serious discourse is exceptionally difficult.

This is one of the reasons they didn't like the Stalin Communist government, despite the fact that many of their government policies were similar.

Yes, which is why they entered into a non-aggression treaty with each other, carved up Poland together, planned to carve up all of Europe, and why the Soviets fed Hitler's war machine with vast quantities of steel and oil.

Of course they didn't like each other. Both were totalitarian ideologies with global ambitions. Had Hitler and Stalin won WWII by remaining allies, along with Imperial Japan, and consolidated their respective power in Europe, the Soviet Union and Germany would have come to blows eventually no matter what other conditions might have been in play, either because both had no intention of being satisfied with their own sphere of influence from the outset (as Hitler proved early on), or over Middle Eastern oil.

[Guest]

So what? What does this have to do with anything? Socialist societies repress and severely punish virtually everything present in the constitution and the Bill of Rights that we take as standard human freedoms and rights. Tell us about all the jazz, big band swing, and rock n' roll one could avail oneself of In Soviet Russia or the Warsaw Pact states from the 30s onward, Molok? Tell us about all the movies, novels, and plays one could freely see? Shall we discuss the ultra-puritanical sexual morality featured in the official ideology of Mao's China?

I thought we were talking about conservatives in Germany? You do realize that wouldn't be the same thing as a conservative in the United States? No, probably not.

Their propagandistic use of ancient Germanic myth, symbol, and legend in their overall ideological program does not indicate they were trying to return to a mythic German past. They used that past to fire emotional and psychological passion (as Mao Tse Tung finally figured out, after attempting to utterly obliterate traditional Chines culture) but they were not trying to "return" to anything, but forge a new totalist social order like none seen before (as were the socialists in Russia).

Oh, ok. Just because they said they were going to return Germany to its former glory, and tried to do it, and adopted all the old symbols and so forth, that doesn't mean they weren't, because Droopy says so.

Bosh. Significant parts of the Nazi inner circle, the SS, and other male/martial-oriented groups within Nazi politics and society were homoerotically oriented and lead, and this kind of male-bonding between males in societies grounded in conquest, heroism, pitiless cruelty, a eugenic-pragmatic mentality toward the female and the family, and totalitarian regimentation has historic precedent:

http://books.google.com/books?id=8__ma0 ... ta&f=false

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_triangle

What you're describing above is the well known phenomena of people who are the most viscerally anti homosexual having homosexual tendencies.

You clearly don't understand the concept "conservative" in either a historic or modern 20th century sense, and from within this dense fog of educational ignorance, serious discourse is exceptionally difficult.

Oh, if only you knew where I was educated. Here's a hint: it's an institution of such ultra conservative stripes that looking at their class titles alone would make you salivate. I would agree with you that they taught a lot of ignorance there, though.

[_Molok]

Of course they didn't like each other. Both were totalitarian ideologies with global ambitions. Had Hitler and Stalin won WWII by remaining allies, along with Imperial Japan, and consolidated their respective power in Europe, the Soviet Union and Germany would have come to blows eventually no matter what other conditions might have been in play, either because both had no intention of being satisfied with their own sphere of influence from the outset (as Hitler proved early on), or over Middle Eastern oil.

What you're not mentioning here is that their global ambitions were totally different. The USSR wanted to see Capitalistic societies crushed. The Nazis wanted Labensraum.

[_Albion]

medotorg above touched on this above but isn't the real issue not about comparisons between different ideologies but why someone like Beck who projects a belief in God would want to own Nazi memorabilia of any description let alone put it on display to the public. Such trash should be consigned to the dustbin of history together with those who wore it and immersed themselves in it to the detriment of millions of dead. Whatever else I might think about Beck, I think a desire to own this stuff is flat out sick.

[_EAllusion]

The point on the Nazis and vaudeville culture is that the Nazis were socially conservative and opposed to social liberalization that was occurring in Germany at that ime. They were part of a coalition of conservative groups in Germany and ultimately took power with broad support from social conservatives. This doesn't quite fit in with the picture of the Nazis as the leftyist leftists who ever did left, especially in some modern, unified sense.

Here's a breakdown of Weimar era political parties in Germany:

http://weimar.facinghistory.org/content ... ar-germany

[_Bond James Bond]

Glenn Beck reads an entire historical and scholarly book about every 3-5 days....
Not to mention all his other reading in general.

You people are nothing compared to his knowledge of history.

Yeah.

History degrees:

Bond~More than 0
Beck~0

[_Bond James Bond]

by the way having Nazi paraphernalia is only appropriate if it's owned by an American soldier who captured/found it personally. If you want to show your appreciation for World War II and weren't a soldier then you can buy a book about it.

[_Droopy]

The point on the Nazis and vaudeville culture is that the Nazis were socially conservative

This is, without question, among the most mind-twistingly bizarre assertions I've ever seen come from any secularist liberal or progressive anywhere, ever, including in this forum.