Are Mormons Christian? Spilt from original thread

[_Bazooka]

Here is what the Church actually teaches.

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 268).

Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God. … He was once a man like us; … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 345–46).

http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-princi ... n?lang=eng

Tobin, you owe Markk an apology.
Joseph Smith taught that God "was once a man like us" and in drawing a comparison with Jesus Christ he did so only in terms of where he dwelt, not in terms of his character or nature. Nowhere does Joseph Smith claim Heavenly Father played the same Saviour role as Jesus Christ did.

[_tapirrider]

No, you are MISREPRESENTING what Joseph Smith said.

Tobin, you have no credibility.

I don't care what the LDS Church's position is on such and such. I don't care what Joseph Smith said about such and such. And I don't care what other LDS leaders opinions were either. As far as I'm concerned, the LDS Church is a man-made organization of like-minded believers and that is it. It doesn't have a special monopoly on the truth.

Pretty much everything Tobin says is BS.

[_BartBurk]

Here are some facts of why Mormons are not Christian
google "Are Mormons Christians"
It upsets me that Mormons are calling themselves Christians when they are actually anti Christian according to the Bible.
Historically, only until recently have Mormons wanted to be called Christians, preferring not to be included with Christian denominations which Joseph Smith said were, ". . .all wrong...all their creeds were an abomination in his sight, and that those professors (Christians) were all corrupt." (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, 2:18-19)
In the past Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons) have preferred to be called "saints." However, in the recent years the LDS church has spend millions in an intense public relations campaign aimed at moving their church into the mainstream of Christianity. The political and economic benefits of Mormons being included in the mainstream of Christianity are obvious. Further, for Mormons to be accepted as traditional Christians would greatly aid in their proselyting the members of Christian denominations into the LDS church. This is why the LDS church is trying so hard to present themselves as Christians and trying to overcome the stigma of being a cult.

Hopefully, this article will help the both Mormons and non-Mormons to see that Mormonism worships a different god and Jesus Christ and not the God and Jesus Christ of the Bible. The Constitution of the United States gives every citizen the right of freedom of religion and the LDS people have the right to believe as they desire. However, biblical Christians also have the right to defend their historic faith as revealed in the Bible and expose those who misuse their historic name.

If the Mormons are correct in their beliefs, they are the only true Christians. The rest of us are just apostate pretenders. I don't think it does much good for us to attack each other over who the true Christians are.

[_lostindc]

lostindc states
From what I can pull away from reading your post, you continue to move the goal post as to what qualifies a faith to be Christian. You attempt to distinguish/build a certain type of Jesus that excludes other faiths. This appears to be very non Christ-like to me.


The Christian Jesus is not a created being, the Mormon Jesus is a created being------ HUGE difference in nature....I am not moving any goal post ...I am just trying to get the point across that Christian doctrine and Mormon doctrine are so opposed to each other that it is impossible for both to be called Christians.

This is incoherent rambling. Build your case. Right now you are basing your interpretation of a person that lived 2000 years ago as the proper interpretation yet many lost but now found texts from shortly after the time of Jesus would disagree with you and even the Bible could be shown to disagree with much of mainstream Christianity's viewpoint on the trinity etc. Ask an outsider, such as a Muslim, if Mormons are Christian and they will tell you yes. I know because I ran this very same survey of perceptions of Mormons as Christian while working at a university and many leaders from various Christian based faiths found Mormons to be Christian but more notably all leaders from non-Christian faiths perceived Mormons as Christian.

Your claim to defining what a follower of Christ should be...is silly and malicious. This is why you and likely your faith cannot be taken seriously by those skeptical folks such as myself.

Typing from phone

[_SteelHead]

SteelHead's guide to understanding Tobin.

Any time Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon etc agrees with Tobin they were speaking with the approval of god, as a prophet, etc.

Any time the disagree with his pet theories they were wrong, human, etc.

Tobin is the ultimate word on Mormon doctrine. I know of no Mormons however, that would claim him as one of their own. He is then a prophet unto himself in a religion of one adherent. Espousing a methodology on knowing the will of God, that by his own admission he has never experienced as god, when he visited Tobin on his personal road to Damascus, never actually told Tobin anything, nor spoke with him.

He is then for all intents and purposes a crackpot. And as he lacks the style and panache of NightLion, he is a poor crackpot , at that.

This has been a public service announcement.

[_Bazooka]

SteelHead's guide to understanding Tobin.

Any time Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon etc agrees with Tobin they were speaking with the approval of god, as a prophet, etc.

Any time the disagree with his pet theories they were wrong, human, etc.

Tobin is the ultimate word on Mormon doctrine. I know of no Mormons however, that would claim him as one of their own. He is then a prophet unto himself in a religion of one adherent. Espousing a methodology on knowing the will of God, that by his own admission he has never experienced as god, when he visited Tobin on his personal road to Damascus, never actually told Tobin anything, nor spoke with him.

He is then for all intents and purposes a crackpot. And as he lacks the style and panache of NightLion, he is a poor crackpot , at that.

This has been a public service announcement.

Welcome to ignore....

[_Markk]

No, you are MISREPRESENTING what Joseph Smith said. Let me spell this out to you in English. That means you are LYING and being thoroughly dishonest. And I'll demonstrate how you are lying by quoting IN FULL what Joseph Smith ACTUALLY said:

http://mldb.byu.edu/follett.htm


First, God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heaven, is a man like one of you. That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today and you were to see the great God who holds this world in its orbit and upholds all things by his power, you would see him in the image and very form of a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion and image of God. He received instruction from and walked, talked, and conversed with him as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary they should understand the character and being of God; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. [That he was not is an idea] incomprehensible to some. But it is the simple and first principle of the gospel-to know for a certainty the character of God, that we may converse with him as one man with another. God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible.

I wish I had the trump of an archangel; I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, elder Rigdon!) Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power." To do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious--in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom, all the combined powers of earth and hell together, to refute it

Read that carefully Markk. Joseph Smith himself didn't say Heavenly Father was just any ordinary man. No, instead he makes it very clear that he was once a mortal creature - THE SAME AS JESUS CHRIST. He was in reality once the savior of a world as Jesus Christ was on our world. And despite Jesus Christ being a man, he was also God in that he was perfect, he never sinned, he never made a mistake, and he has provided for the salvation of everyone. WE ARE NOT JESUS CHRIST NOR CAN WE EVER BE HIM. What that means is we can never be or do what God has done - EVER. We can share in all that God has to give us, but we can not be God. It is simply beyond us

Hi Tobin,

This is a sad exchange.

Joseph Smith qualified the context by stating..."was once a man like us"... are you saying Joseph Smith was both god and man like Jesus was? Joseph Smith said "us" meaning his self, and those listening to him.

You have not addressed the demands your position leaves that both worthy LDS men and women will have " ALL" the power, knowledge, Glory, power and dominion as HF and Jesus, VS. my belief it is just worthy men in context. Which your position certainly separates LDS theology from Christian theology forever, as does mine.

You have not addressed TELOP and the demands it places on the LDS plan of salvation, including how men become gods.

You have not addressed the demands on GA respectability, by your denying a LDS teaching manual written under the authority of arguably two of the most qualified LDS authors and leaders that have lead the church; you saying what they teach can not be trusted as truth?

This is a perfect example of what "the church" does to folks, it leaves one that wants to believe, having to sort out, on their own, the maze of contradictions, confusions, and omissions with absolutely no hope of exit from the circular problems it creates and ignores.

Again it is a mess, and to be honest on almost every LDS issue I could argue different positions, all negative, simply because I can; because "the church" is the liar...not me. And what is ironic while you call me a liar, I believe you are honestly lying in your hopes to make "the church" true.

take care

Mark

[_Tobin]

No, you are MISREPRESENTING what Joseph Smith said. Let me spell this out to you in English. That means you are LYING and being thoroughly dishonest. And I'll demonstrate how you are lying by quoting IN FULL what Joseph Smith ACTUALLY said:

http://mldb.byu.edu/follett.htm


First, God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heaven, is a man like one of you. That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today and you were to see the great God who holds this world in its orbit and upholds all things by his power, you would see him in the image and very form of a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion and image of God. He received instruction from and walked, talked, and conversed with him as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary they should understand the character and being of God; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. [That he was not is an idea] incomprehensible to some. But it is the simple and first principle of the gospel-to know for a certainty the character of God, that we may converse with him as one man with another. God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible.

I wish I had the trump of an archangel; I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, elder Rigdon!) Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power." To do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious--in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom, all the combined powers of earth and hell together, to refute it

Read that carefully Markk. Joseph Smith himself didn't say Heavenly Father was just any ordinary man. No, instead he makes it very clear that he was once a mortal creature - THE SAME AS JESUS CHRIST. He was in reality once the savior of a world as Jesus Christ was on our world. And despite Jesus Christ being a man, he was also God in that he was perfect, he never sinned, he never made a mistake, and he has provided for the salvation of everyone. WE ARE NOT JESUS CHRIST NOR CAN WE EVER BE HIM. What that means is we can never be or do what God has done - EVER. We can share in all that God has to give us, but we can not be God. It is simply beyond us

Joseph Smith qualified the context by stating..."was once a man like us"... are you saying Joseph Smith was both god and man like Jesus was? Joseph Smith said "us" meaning his self, and those listening to him.

That is just another mischaracterization of what he said. Of course we share some similar traits with Jesus Christ - for example, Jesus Christ was mortal and so are we. But there are important differences too and Joseph Smith spells out exactly what those are - namely he was God and laid down his life and took it up again.

You have not addressed the demands your position leaves that both worthy LDS men and women will have " ALL" the power, knowledge, Glory, power and dominion as HF and Jesus, VS. my belief it is just worthy men in context. Which your position certainly separates LDS theology from Christian theology forever, as does mine.

Yes I have and I have done so repeatedly by citing D&C 132:19-20. Verse 20 clearly explains what that means. I'll quote it again since you seem unable or unwilling to read it.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.

You have not addressed TELOP and the demands it places on the LDS plan of salvation, including how men become gods.

Again, yes I have by citing verse 19. It clearly spells that out.

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

You have not addressed the demands on GA respectability, by your denying a LDS teaching manual written under the authority of arguably two of the most qualified LDS authors and leaders that have lead the church; you saying what they teach can not be trusted as truth?

I have addressed that repeatedly as well. I have pointed out that the GAs are men and NOT God. They are fallible, express their opinions and they can and are wrong especially when they contradict scriptures (and even Joseph Smith himself). Also, citing material oriented towards a male audience is not a fair representation of Mormon teachings.

[_Nightlion]

Here are some facts of why Mormons are not Christian
google "Are Mormons Christians"
It upsets me that Mormons are calling themselves Christians when they are actually anti Christian according to the Bible.
Historically, only until recently have Mormons wanted to be called Christians, preferring not to be included with Christian denominations which Joseph Smith said were, ". . .all wrong...all their creeds were an abomination in his sight, and that those professors (Christians) were all corrupt." (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, 2:18-19)
In the past Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons) have preferred to be called "saints." However, in the recent years the LDS church has spend millions in an intense public relations campaign aimed at moving their church into the mainstream of Christianity. The political and economic benefits of Mormons being included in the mainstream of Christianity are obvious. Further, for Mormons to be accepted as traditional Christians would greatly aid in their proselyting the members of Christian denominations into the LDS church. This is why the LDS church is trying so hard to present themselves as Christians and trying to overcome the stigma of being a cult.

Hopefully, this article will help the both Mormons and non-Mormons to see that Mormonism worships a different god and Jesus Christ and not the God and Jesus Christ of the Bible. The Constitution of the United States gives every citizen the right of freedom of religion and the LDS people have the right to believe as they desire. However, biblical Christians also have the right to defend their historic faith as revealed in the Bible and expose those who misuse their historic name.

Are you sitting down there Jason15? I hope so. As I did when I called in Shawn WHOSIT's anti-mormon TV show last year and proved HE was NOT a Christian all Evangelicals, Protestants, Catholics worship no Christ at all.
Okay, I will even admit that LDS are not true Christians if that makes you feel better. They too are fully overcome of the world.....academics not a few.

Note: There is no alter call mentioned in the Bible. The resurrected Christ HAD to minister to those Jews who already BELIEVED...say amen and halleluiah with me people....for forty days, count them MR INSTANT SALVATION, forty days......and then Jesus had to tell them to continue with one accord in fasting and prayer until, yeah, let's make that a big UNTIL they received the promise of the Father......what's that?....which is the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.

Now anyone who gets a new heart from God does not continue a sinner.........idiot Evangelical moron posers thinking that they are saved while they continue to be sinners as if God does not have the power to change them, which denies the faith and crucifies Christ afresh, if you ever were accountable, you pernicious bastards.

Oh, but keep those money blessings a comin' in everybody. KACHING A MUNDO. Money changin' grunts.

I could go on an on and on and on and on and on if you want. Bug off.

[_Markk]

Tobin wrote:...That is just another mischaracterization of what he said. Of course we share some similar traits with Jesus Christ - for example, Jesus Christ was mortal and so are we. But there are important differences too and Joseph Smith spells out exactly what those are - namely he was God and laid down his life and took it up again.

Again, yes I have by citing verse 19. It clearly spells that out.


I have addressed that repeatedly as well. I have pointed out that the GAs are men and NOT God. They are fallible, express their opinions and they can and are wrong especially when they contradict scriptures (and even Joseph Smith himself). Also, citing material oriented towards a male audience is not a fair representation of Mormon teachings

1st, the everlasting covenant is not TELOP, so your proof text is spun...again, what demand do the ELOP have on your salvation and final estate?

2nd, then you believe both "worthy" men and women will be gods and have "all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge as HF and Jesus...? Please answer.

3rd, Where is the line as to what "the church" teaches? My grand parents, my father, lived and died believing worthy men can become gods, not women...were they duped or just not as smart as you? Also... if Joseph Smith was wrong about the nature of God, whom he claimed to have seen and talked to on many occasions, why should anyone believe a word he has said, including D&C 132?

4th, the context was set when Joseph Smith said HF was just like you and me...period, you keep overlooking that qualifying statement to the context of the KFD.

I guess to you it doesn't matter what the church teaches, it appears to me, that to you, it is nothing more than subjective candor? In other words LDS leaders are sincere, frank, and bold in their teachings yet in all reality it is nothing more than their own opinions that are just not true.

This is why I teach that Mormonism is not based on any real sets of truths, but on personal opinions subjective to "the survival of the church." Meaning, it does not matter what is taught, or by whom, as long as the personal testimony of "the church" survives. "God was once a man"...maybe, maybe not...it depend on the moment and the saint...TELOP? Naw, it is a teaching, it is in the AoF, but it means nothing to me? Joseph Smith, Joseph Fielding Smith, Ezra Taft Benson, John Widstoe, Callis, Richards, and Hunter....all misunderstood, and taught wrongly on the true nature of God and TELOP but you, Tobin, got it right? More to the maze.

So just one more time...do you believe worthy LDS men AND women have will have All the power lorry dominion and knowledge that HF and Jesus have?