Same-sex Marriage.

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_Darth J
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Re: Same-sex Marriage.

Post by _Darth J »

Fence Sitter wrote:What does the propensity to make a decision have to do with the right to make it?


Let's explore that a little bit.

Wade has put a lot of stock in the 2010 U.S. census, even though way upthread I posted a link discussing the methodological problems in how that census determined how many same-sex couples there are in the United States. But keeping with that 2010 U.S. census so we can do an apples to apples comparison, Wikipedia summarizes thusly the figures for mixed marriages in the U.S. of A.:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracia ... statistics

White Americans were statistically the least likely to wed interracially, though in absolute terms they were involved in interracial marriages more than any other racial group due to their demographic majority. 2.1% of married White women and 2.3% of married White men had a non-White spouse. 1.0% of all married White men were married to an Asian American woman, and 1.0% of married White women were married to a man classified as "other".

Got that? Just barely over 2% of the white people in America decided to marry someone of a different "lineage." Yet Wade, in a spectacular demonstration of what a non sequitur looks like, somehow managed to voice his approval of an equal protection right to mixed marriages, as announced by the U.S. Supreme Court in Loving v. Virginia:

wenglund wrote: However, it would be more fitting to compare my argument to the one's made in the rulings in McLaughlin v. Florida and Loving v. Virginia that over turned Pace v. Alabama.

As with those rulings, my argument unqualifiedly affirms the right of adults to marry adults of the opposite sex--which includes mixed-race couples.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31082&p=749967&hilit=virginia#p749967


So why isn't the tiny percentage of white people who marry a spouse of a different race an unintended negative consequence of a right to enter a mixed marriage, if the alleged small percentage of gay people who want to marry another gay person is a negative unintended consequence of a right to enter a same-sex marriage?

Keeping in mind that even if you very generously accept Wade's assertions about the percentage of gay people who enter a same-sex marriage, that percentage is substantially greater than the number of white people who marry a non-white person.

As a side note, according to Gallup, 87% of the people in the U.S. currently approve of mixed marriages, while only 4% approved of it in 1958.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/163697/appro ... hites.aspx

That shift in public approval is that vast, even though in practical reality only a tiny percentage of white people actually do enter mixed marriages. Wade's blog keeps inexplicably linking to data indicating that the reason for some of his "negative unintended consequences" is not that gay people inherently have something wrong with them (other than being gay, which is a grievous sin to Wade's deity), but that they are marginalized by society.

The change in public acceptance of mixed marriages that followed Loving v. Virginia suggests that the way to cure Wade's "negative unintended consequences" is for society to stop marginalizing same-sex couples and grant them the same rights that every other couple has. In other words, Wade is unwittingly refuting his own argument. But we can't have that, because that would mean a final surrender to Babylon. Wade does not want to solve the problem. Wade wants to impose the sexual taboos his church has co-opted from the ancient Hebrews onto society at large. But First Amendment says using that basis to determine what substantive legal rights people have is a non-starter. Thus, we have Wade's ridiculous Gish gallop, in the hope that people whose thinking is as fatuous as his own will believe that there is a coherent argument against an equal protection right to same-sex marriage that is based on something other than religious dogma (religious dogma that not all religious people share, I might add).
_wenglund
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Re: Same-sex Marriage.

Post by _wenglund »

Runtu wrote:My criticism from the beginning is that your data doesn't support your claims. Even if we change the language to match what you're saying above, it doesn't change that. You still have no evidence supporting your claims because you haven't shown how the desire of gay couples for committed relationships compares to that of heterosexual couples.


If my claim was intended to mind-read regarding "desire," rather than assess "inclination" based on "results," then you may have a point. It wasn't. My concern isn't with indeterminate emotions and beliefs, but with demonstrable actions and behaviors.

If it helps you to more correctly understand what I actually concluded, transpose the word "inclined" with the word "likely."

To support the belief that ""homosexuals are far less inclined than heterosexuals to end up in and stay in a legal committed relationship, including marriage, where permitted," you need two pieces of data:

1. Information about the inclination of heterosexuals to "end up and stay in a legal, committed relationship."
2. Information about the inclination of homosexuals to "end up and stay in a legal, committed relationship."


Correct. And, that is accomplished through looking at results.

[qoute]You've got the first, but only part of the second (and that part shows a greater inclination to "end up in a legal, committed relationship." Until you have the second part about the desire to stay in a legal, committed relationship, you can't make any supported claims comparing the two groups.[/quote]

Actually, in terms of the alleged missing part of the second piece of data, again, I am not speaking to indeterminate "desire" but to demonstrable actions. All I need to show is that on average, same-sex relationships (committed or otherwise, and legalized and non-legalized) are behaviorally less stable and prone to dissolution than different-sex relationships (committed or otherwise and legalized and non-legalized). The uncommitted relationships are included to establish plausible general patterns for each party, and the non-legally committed relationships are included to compensate for, or to be "suggestive" regarding, those circumstances where legal committed relationships for homosexuals are not permitted.

Looking through the sources on my blog, particularly the post in question, I can see that while the documentation there suffices for what is said there, and may be "suggestive" in support of the informal conclusion I stated here (the Strohm study seems almost to take the differences in instability and dissolution as uncontroversial and a given, and seeks but to research out and explain the differences), it may be unsatisfactory for some here. And, so, I will need to take some time to research out and cover all the basis.

And, while this sticking point isn't all that relevant to my blog post, and thus the topic of this thread, I think it is important to the general issue of SSM, and important to my friend Runtu, and so I am happy to put in the effort. Be patient.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
"Why should I care about being consistent?" --Mister Scratch (MD, '08)
_wenglund
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Re: Same-sex Marriage.

Post by _wenglund »

Fence Sitter wrote:What does the propensity to make a decision have to do with the right to make it?


What relevance does your loaded question have to the qualified topic of this thread as stated in the OP? (Hint: it is the same answer as many have given here in response to your question)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
"Why should I care about being consistent?" --Mister Scratch (MD, '08)
_Fence Sitter
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Re: Same-sex Marriage.

Post by _Fence Sitter »

wenglund wrote:
Fence Sitter wrote:What does the propensity to make a decision have to do with the right to make it?


What relevance does your loaded question have to the qualified topic of this thread as stated in the OP? (Hint: it is the same answer as many have given here in response to your question)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


How is my question loaded?

(Hint: It's not.)
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Runtu
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Re: Same-sex Marriage.

Post by _Runtu »

I honestly don't know what to say, Wade. Desire or inclination can be shown by results, which again, you have not shown. You need data that provides demonstrable actions, which for some reason you are unwilling or unable to provide.

All I need to show is that on average, same-sex relationships (committed or otherwise, and legalized and non-legalized) are behaviorally less stable and prone to dissolution than different-sex relationships (committed or otherwise and legalized and non-legalized).


Again, your data doesn't show this. I've asked again and again for positive evidence supporting your claims, and you haven't provided it, preferring instead to change words, such as "desire" and "inclination."

The problem is, as always, a lack of evidence to support your claims. Once you can provide evidence that heterosexuals have more "inclination" than homosexuals to "end up married" and "stay married," we can continue the discussion.

In the absence of such evidence, I'm not sure that patience is warranted.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Darth J
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Re: Same-sex Marriage.

Post by _Darth J »

Fence Sitter wrote:What does the propensity to make a decision have to do with the right to make it?


wenglund wrote: What relevance does your loaded question have to the topic of this thread? (Hint: it is the same answer as many have given here in response to your question)


I'm sorry, Wade, but that's not what a loaded question is.

The question's relevance to the topic of this thread, though, is that you are attempting to make that very argument. The reason you are discussing at length what you assert to be negative unintended consequences of same-sex marriage is that you're attempting to persuade people that same-sex couples should not have a legal right to marry. Since you are fooling a total of no one that your blog has any other purpose, I think it would save a lot of time if you stop trying to be coy about what is blatantly obvious.

Instead, let's try out your reasoning on another demographic group:

In 2009, Pew Research determined that Mormons make up 1.7% of the total adult population of the United States.

http://www.pewforum.org/2009/07/24/a-po ... in-the-us/

Since such a tiny percentage of people in the U.S. choose to be Mormon, it is time for us to reconsider whether Mormons should have the same right to free exercise of religion that other people do.

Right, Wade?
_gramps
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Re: Same-sex Marriage.

Post by _gramps »

Wenglund wrote:

And, so, I will need to take some time to research out and cover all the basis.


I take it Wade never played baseball.
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
Adrian Beverland
_Darth J
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Re: Same-sex Marriage.

Post by _Darth J »

gramps wrote:Wenglund wrote:

And, so, I will need to take some time to research out and cover all the basis.


I take it Wade never played baseball.


Generally, if the ball stays in the infield, I like my short stop to cover my basis and my second baseman to cover my premise.
_wenglund
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Re: Same-sex Marriage.

Post by _wenglund »

Runtu wrote:I honestly don't know what to say, Wade. Desire or inclination can be shown by results, which again, you have not shown. You need data that provides demonstrable actions, which for some reason you are unwilling or unable to provide.


I don't know what to say either, Runtu. I have provided documentation that to me suffices for all of what I said in my blog (i.e. all that is pertinent to this thread), and which is even sufficient to me for all I informally said here (I am not writing a graduate-level research paper by the way), and acknowledged that it, in part, may not be satisfactory to some here, and that I would research further, but to be patient. I don't see how that in any reasonable sense can be interpreted as "unwilling or unable."

But, that seems to be how you uncharitably see it. And even though the uncharitableness prompts me to throw my hands in the air and wash them of the whole business, figuring that there is not the least give from your end, and that it has all been a huge waste of time, I may still expend the effort of researching the sticking point, and post it here. We'll see.

For now, I will just be at piece with and content being accused of misusing statistics and for allegedly not be very good at statistical analysis. I have been accused a number of times of far worse on this thread, and life is too short to let certain cyber-perceptions get in the way of a happy and growing life.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
Last edited by Gadianton on Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Why should I care about being consistent?" --Mister Scratch (MD, '08)
_wenglund
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Re: Same-sex Marriage.

Post by _wenglund »

gramps wrote:Wenglund wrote:

And, so, I will need to take some time to research out and cover all the basis.


I take it Wade never played baseball.


That made me laugh, too.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
"Why should I care about being consistent?" --Mister Scratch (MD, '08)
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