Is hell enough as punishment?

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_Bazooka
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Re: Is hell enough as punishment?

Post by _Bazooka »

Tobin wrote:
SteelHead wrote:Except that there is no archaeological evidence of a million or so people wondering through the wilderness for 40 years. Nor is there evidence supporting the conquests of Canaan. So yeah, outside of the glaring holes, why conclude something other than the record of the Old Testament is accurate?
http://ehrmanblog.org/historical-proble ... of-canaan/


SteelHead,

From time-to-time, I read your posts just to laugh. And I'm sure subgenius is laughing just as hard as I am at your less than profound statement here. I know you may not realize this, but people wandering around in a wilderness aren't likely to leave much archaeological evidence. You typically need some kind of settlement where refuse, graves, tools, structural remains, and other items can accumulate so you can recover them for study.


What Steely said plus...
Numbers and logistics[edit]
According to Exodus 12:37-38, the Israelites numbered "about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children," plus many non-Israelites and livestock.[15] Numbers 1:46 gives a more precise total of 603,550 men aged 20 and up.[16] The 600,000, plus wives, children, the elderly, and the "mixed multitude" of non-Israelites would have numbered some 2 million people,[17] compared with an entire Egyptian population in 1250 BCE of around 3 to 3.5 million.[18] Marching ten abreast, and without accounting for livestock, they would have formed a line 150 miles long.[19]
No evidence has been found that indicates Egypt ever suffered such a demographic and economic catastrophe or that the Sinai desert ever hosted (or could have hosted) these millions of people and their herds.[20] Some scholars have rationalised these numbers into smaller figures, for example reading the Hebrew as "600 families" rather than 600,000 men, but all such solutions raise more problems than they solve.[21] The view of mainstream modern biblical scholarship is that the improbability of the Exodus story originates because it was written not as history, but to demonstrate God's purpose and deeds with his Chosen People, Israel.[3] Some have suggested that the 603,550 people delivered from Egypt (according to Numbers 1:46) is not a number, but a gematria (a code in which numbers represent letters or words) for bnei yisra'el kol rosh, "the children of Israel, every individual;"[22] while the number 600,000 symbolises the total destruction of the generation of Israel which left Egypt, none of whom lived to see the Promised Land.[23]
Archaeology[edit]
A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has found no evidence which can be directly related to the Exodus captivity and the escape and travels through the wilderness,[3] and most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit".[4] A number of theories have been put forward to account for the origins of the Israelites, and despite differing details they agree on Israel's Canaanite origins.[24] The culture of the earliest Israelite settlements is Canaanite, their cult-objects are those of the Canaanite god El, the pottery remains in the local Canaanite tradition, and the alphabet used is early Canaanite, and almost the sole marker distinguishing the "Israelite" villages from Canaanite sites is an absence of pig bones, although whether even this is an ethnic marker or is due to other factors remains a matter of dispute.[25]
Anachronisms[edit]
Several details point to a 1st millennium date for the Book of Exodus: Ezion-Geber, (one of the Stations of the Exodus), for example, dates to a period between the 8th and 6th centuries BCE with possible further occupation into the 4th century BCE,[26] and those place-names on the Exodus route which have been identified - Goshen, Pithom, Succoth, Ramesses and Kadesh Barnea - point to the geography of the 1st millennium rather than the 2nd.[27] Similarly, Pharaoh's fear that the Israelites might ally themselves with foreign invaders seems unlikely in the context of the late 2nd millennium, when Canaan was part of an Egyptian empire and Egypt faced no enemies in that direction, but does make sense in a 1st millennium context, when Egypt was considerably weaker and faced invasion first from the Persians and later from Seleucid Syria.[28] The mention of the dromedary in Exodus 9:3 also suggests a later date of composition - the widespread domestication of the camel as a herd animal did not take place before the late 2nd millennium, after the Israelites had already emerged in Canaan,[29] and they did not become widespread in Egypt until c.200-100 BCE.[30]
Chronology[edit]
The chronology of the Exodus story likewise underlines its essentially religious rather than historical nature. The number seven, for example, was sacred to God in Judaism, and so the Israelites arrive at Sinai, where they will meet God, at the beginning of the seventh week after their departure from Egypt,[31] while the erection of the Tabernacle, God's dwelling-place among his people, occurs in the year 2666 after God creates the world, two-thirds of the way through a four thousand year era which culminates in or around the re-dedication of the Second Temple in 164 BCE.[32][33]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus

Now what?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_madeleine
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Re: Is hell enough as punishment?

Post by _madeleine »

SteelHead wrote:Tobin, you are dumb as a stump.

The book of numbers 1:46 states the exodus was composed of 603550 men aged 20 and up. When you apply standard population distribution across that number you have a total population of about 2 million people as you need to account for women and children.

The population of Egypt at the time was estimated at 3 million. There is no evidence 2/3 of the population of Egypt up and left at any time frame reasonable for the Exodus.


The Old Testament uses numbers as symbols.

46
the total enrollment was six hundred and three thousand, five hundred and fifty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Significan ... in_Judaism

600, possibly a reference to Noah, which is a reference God's mercy, the saving of a people.
Or 6 - the number of days to create the world, which is a reference to God's acts in the world and something being created rather than lost.

3 a symbol of holiness

5 the number of books in the Pentateuch, references scripture and God' word. Prophets and Law.

50 a reference to the Jubilee which has multiple meaning.

It is more like a painting, and in the iconography of words there is underlying meaning.
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI
_SteelHead
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Re: Is hell enough as punishment?

Post by _SteelHead »

Exodus 12:37
37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.

Also just symbolic?

So the exodus was what: 4 guys, 3 gals, 5 oxen, 16 sheep, and a donkey?
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_madeleine
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Re: Is hell enough as punishment?

Post by _madeleine »

SteelHead wrote:Exodus 12:37
37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.

Also just symbolic?

So the exodus was what: 4 guys, 3 gals, 5 oxen, 16 sheep, and a donkey?

Symbolic is not literal. More of a description of the people. Saved by God, as a people, as Noah was (600) in a great numbers (X 1000). 1000 is used throughout the Old Testament to signify a great number. 1000 years = a long time, not literally 1000 years. Etc.
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI
_SteelHead
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Re: Is hell enough as punishment?

Post by _SteelHead »

This is why I gave up the Old Testament. None of it is literal it is all symbolic. ;)
Creation in 6 days - symbolic
Fall of Adam - symbolic
Flood - symbolic
Exodus - symbolic
Kingdoms - symbolic

Why should I follow this work of fiction again?
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_madeleine
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Re: Is hell enough as punishment?

Post by _madeleine »

SteelHead wrote:This is why I gave up the Old Testament. None of it is literal it is all symbolic. ;)
Creation in 6 days - symbolic
Fall of Adam - symbolic
Flood - symbolic
Exodus - symbolic
Kingdoms - symbolic

Why should I follow this work of fiction again?

Eh, we'll, that is the problem with sola scriptura. :mrgreen:

Symbolism can be used to convey a literal truth. The Bible is not a science text book or a historical text book, and does not have the purpose of those types of books.
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI
_Themis
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Re: Is hell enough as punishment?

Post by _Themis »

subgenius wrote:God killed all the Egyptians' animals as punishment for not letting the Israelite go
God let the dust in the air create boils on Egyptians as punishment for not letting the Israelite go
sent grasshoppers
sent hailstorms
darkened sky
angels of death
all specific to the Egyptians...all specifically as punishment (reference Exodus 9)


Funny he wasn't punishing them to get them to be righteous, but then these tales are tribe centric. He is our God so go get your own.

The OP seems to be asking about God punishing people to get them to be righteous. How could we determine that? Many might think this and then try harder at their particular beliefs after they think God/Allah/Zeus/Xenu is punishing them. Most others may not live a righteous life as defined by a particular religion yet have a successful happy life. I take you think Hue will get his punishment in the next life, since he has such a better one then almost anyone in this life.
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_madeleine
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Re: Is hell enough as punishment?

Post by _madeleine »

four seasons wrote:If the questions I ask here seems a bit confused, it is because I feel confused about what I am asking about.

As I understand the scriptures, God sometimes punishes some humans while they are living on earth. I was thinking about why God did that instead of (a) doing nothing and (b) after these individuals had died let them go to hell as punishment.
My answer to that question is that God punishes humans while they are still alive because he want as many humans as possible to start living righteously while on earth.
What do you think of that answer?
I was also thinking about this: Why would God want as many humans as possible to start living righteously on Earth? I was thinking that after they died they anyway got a chance to repent and avoid hell, so why intervene so early (while they still are on Earth)? Is that because there are benefits to repent on Earth and not wait until after death? Or does God want some degree of order on Earth?

I would be thankfull for answers.


Have you ever heard the phrase "God meets us where we are at?"

But it would help to have a specific example from the Old Testament, to discuss.
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI
_Themis
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Re: Is hell enough as punishment?

Post by _Themis »

subgenius wrote:
and Adam/Eve were expelled from Garden as punishment...



Yes the LDS story has it that they disobeyed a command God wanted them to disobey. :lol:

and Eve was punished with painful childbirth, etc..


The LDS story has her as recognizing that they needed to in order to advance God plans. Funny why she would get punished for that. Funnier that women had already been giving birth tens of thousands of years before that. Millions of you add all the female animals.
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_Themis
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Re: Is hell enough as punishment?

Post by _Themis »

subgenius wrote:There is no reason to conclude that God did not do as was claimed in the Book of Exodus.
You have no evidence that would raise doubt about the author's account of events.
If you are claiming that the author is a liar or prone to exaggeration then present the evidence for your claim
or
sit down and continue with your dumbfounded exclamations about people having the audacity to "have a plan".


He already provided reasons to conclude it didn't really happen. Wonder why you probably don't accept the ancient Greek stories as literally happening.
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