Is hell enough as punishment?

[_ludwigm]

How are you doing, ludwigm? We haven't chatted in a while.

If You are able to wait three days to my answers (pre-moderation status, by the way) then OK.

I am a happy grandfather with 20 (yes, twenty) grandchildren.
I know their names and sequence (list based on age).
My wife knows the birthdays and namedays (budget orienting).

I am sorry for MsJack for not appearing on her thread. (tell it her...)
Beyond five children and twenty grandchildren...

by the way to say something to fit to Mormonism - before I can banned for Hungarian things - in this big family there is one TBM, my yoke (Matt 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.) wife.

[_Bazooka]

The Bible is a collection of mythology like other collections of mythologies. It has no more veracity than say D'Aulaires' Book of Greek Myths.

The Bible seems to be whatever it is you want it to be.
Want it to be literal? No problem the flood really happened.
Want it to be symbolic? No problem the flood was symbolic meaning God wants us to be baptised.

What it actually is, if not a historical text, is a collection of writings from people with their own agenda.
Whoever wrote Exodus, for example, wrote what words that conveyed a message that they themselves determined, perhaps declaring that God had prompted them to do so. There's nothing to support that claim, if that was what they were claiming when they penned the symbology/myth/legend/religious/historical narratives.
It's just a collection of outpourings of personal bias, used by individuals today to drive their own personal bias.

I'm not saying it doesn't have value to individuals, but the claim of "God wrote it" is completely unsubstantiated.

[_subgenius]

That the oldest known religious structure Göbekli Tepe which appears to be for an animistic religion which predates the creation myth and the fall of Adam by around 4k years means......... what?

Please, provide any-and-or-all Bible/Book of Mormon Chapter(s) and Verse(s) that provide the "date" of creation.
Thank you

[_subgenius]

So no method of determining literal truth?

as opposed to a figurative truth??
can you provide an example where a literal truth and figurative truth are in opposition?...or exist at all?...truth is truth, is it not?

I can't speak for EV's, but some Mormons don't. I don't think atheists do at all. It might be that they talk in literal terms with those who see it that way.

let me guess, the word for the day is "literal"
So, your position is that atheists don't have a literal view of the scriptures?...i agree in a s much as atheists have no view at all...but as for their criticism of the scriptures they are wholly dependent on a literal view of the scriptures.....even though no one really understands why they would have any view in the first place...aside from the atheist's propensity to be masturbatory in public.

[_subgenius]

The Bible seems to be whatever it is you want it to be.
Want it to be literal? No problem the flood really happened.
Want it to be symbolic? No problem the flood was symbolic meaning God wants us to be baptised.

obviously your opinion.
Obviously reality contradicts your notion of "no problem".

What it actually is, if not a historical text, is a collection of writings from people with their own agenda.
Whoever wrote Exodus, for example, wrote what words that conveyed a message that they themselves determined, perhaps declaring that God had prompted them to do so. There's nothing to support that claim, if that was what they were claiming when they penned the symbology/myth/legend/religious/historical narratives.
It's just a collection of outpourings of personal bias, used by individuals today to drive their own personal bias.

nice guess...got any evidence for your tin-foil hat conspiracy? I mean to say, you are so hell-bent on demanding evidence for everything and from everyone that you would not risk being exposed as a hypocrite by not responding in kind....right? (holding breath begining......now)

I'm not saying it doesn't have value to individuals, but the claim of "God wrote it" is completely unsubstantiated.

not true...to anyone that reads the words it becomes obvious...it is self-evident...and self-evident is a valid affirmation of what is true (see also US Constitution and Declaration of Independence).
For if you, here and now, deny the reality of truth being self-evident then you surely lack the maturity and intellect to discuss any of these matters....you would simply be a troll.

[_subgenius]

That the oldest known religious structure Göbekli Tepe which appears to be for an animistic religion which predates the creation myth and the fall of Adam by around 4k years means......... what?

"appears to be"?...it appears to be reformed Baptist...or maybe Hindu...or maybe you just don't know, but in the name of all things egotisitcal and anti-science you would offer up a conclusion anyway.
So, obviously the Bible just got a better publishing deal...otherwise ?

[_SteelHead]

Yes sub because only you or tobin would argue that when the scientists investigating a historical site use the evidence at the site to interpret its usage, it is not science. Are you next going to join Tobin's refrain that 2 million people slowly meandering through a desert leave no mark? Or should we cover your base inability to calculate the volume of a sphere again?

"Appears to be" is in reference to the principal investigator's theories of the site's use based on the evidence available to him. It is a statement consistent with the scientific method. It does not speak definitively as there is no way to ever be fully certain about the interpretation of 10k+ year old data. It is you religionists who proclaim certainty of conclusion based on no evidence.

[_Tobin]

Yes sub because only you or tobin would argue that when the scientists investigating a historical site use the evidence at the site to interpret its usage, it is not science. Are you next going to join Tobin's refrain that 2 million people slowly meandering through a desert leave no mark? Or should we cover your base inability to calculate the volume of a sphere again?

Actually, if you'll remember, I found your statement that there were 2 million (or millions) of Israelites absolutely ridiculous. If you are going to state my position, please attempt to do so correctly.

[_Bazooka]

That the oldest known religious structure Göbekli Tepe which appears to be for an animistic religion which predates the creation myth and the fall of Adam by around 4k years means......... what?

Please, provide any-and-or-all Bible/Book of Mormon Chapter(s) and Verse(s) that provide the "date" of creation.
Thank you

Nicely narrowing of the field.
What about Mormon Church official doctrine and official teaching on the subject of the 'date' of creation? You prepared to accept that?

[_Bazooka]

I'm not saying it doesn't have value to individuals, but the claim of "God wrote it" is completely unsubstantiated.

not true...to anyone that reads the words it becomes obvious...it is self-evident...and self-evident is a valid affirmation of what is true...

I think you are describing the methodology of 'confirmation bias'.
Else how do you explain the fact that, when faced with a group of people who have read the Bible only a small proportion determine it to be God's doing, whereas the other portion find it merely to be the words of men and nothing to do with 'God' at all? If it was 'obvious' and 'self-evident' then that wouldn't be the case.

Still...I ought to thank you for making my point so succinctly.