How important should the Joseph Smith papyri be?

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_Uncle Ed
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Re: How important should the Joseph Smith papyri be?

Post by _Uncle Ed »

Bazooka wrote:
Themis wrote:...We have all 3 facsimiles that Egyptology have translated. It doesn't fit at all with Joseph's claimed translations of them. The Book of Abraham tells us fac 1 is the start of the commencement of the Book of Abraham story. Since we have text with Fac 1 which is the start of that record it is the claimed source of the Book of Abraham text. All the evidence points to this, especially the KEP. We have way more then enough to see Joseph is making it up. The guy really could never resist pulling this crap.


Joseph incorrectly translated everything that we have the original documents for, yet we should believe that he got it right with the documents that we don't now have.

Getting to the actual text, contents and context, of the books themselves, we have far less to argue about. Focusing on the "original sources" as some kind of skill with physical artifacts, is denying the presence of "God" behind all imagined things. Our imagination is (I've said this before) our most Godlike trait. (It is also the one thing that teachers of the very young have the least patience for, since imagination causes daydreaming and that loss of attention for the droning voice at the front of the classroom is a rebuke, and will not be tolerated, etc.) The point is: "God" works through EVERYTHING to bring about good things. Is anything that Joseph Smith wrote/translated/received/revealed a bad thing today? Polygamists are often "bad" at how they live their religion; abuses of all kinds occur. "United Order" experiments always attract the loafers of society and fail under the weight of their own inequities and arguing, etc. Aside from those TWO experiments, which were responsible for the birth of Mormonism but had an end once their utility was past, what other things that Joseph Smith taught that are practiced in the Church in the 21st century, are to be held up as bad things? Nothing I can think of. In fact the Church is well on its way in this century to becoming a visible, influential world religion. That's on a par, time-wise, with early Christianity as it grew on the Greco-Roman world stage amidst paganism and Judaism, et al. the "world religions" of the time. The secret to that growth is in the doctrines and teachings and the stories contained in scripture to convey those doctrines and teachings to the imagination, where living them becomes a reality.

J. R. R. Tolkien warned his readers/fans to not examine the bones from which the stew is made. His son Christopher ignored his daddy's warning and published virtually all of his father's stuff, the "bones", from which Middle Earth came into being. A similar injunction, against demanding that physical artifacts be the sole criteria by which one judges Joseph Smith's "translating" capability/gift, can be made: don't expect "God" to spell it out in terms that are absolutely undeniable, "he" always leaves mystery, even apparent contradiction, in the "original sources", so that unbelievers will not be condemned for rejecting what they don't want to believe, yet, for whatever complex of reasons. The papyri are an artifact, incomplete, but not incomplete enough to avoid criticism. The resulting story of Abraham fits in perfectly with Abrahamic religion exegesis, giving a fresher, more "novelistic" detail appealing to 19th century readers who were becoming addicted to creative writing at a voracious pace. Today the Book of Abraham seems quaint or even colloquial, not ancient enough, and therefore easily believed as Joseph Smith's imagination/manipulation/delusion, whatever. But the story fits in with other scripture without a seam. If you believe that "God" is speaking or has ever spoken through textual mediums, then there isn't anything out of order with the Book of Abraham either. The inspiration of ancient artifacts turned Joseph Smith's imagination "on", and the rest flowed....
A man should never step a foot into the field,
But have his weapons to hand:
He knows not when he may need arms,
Or what menace meet on the road. - Hávamál 38

Man's joy is in Man. - Hávamál 47
_DarkHelmet
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Re: How important should the Joseph Smith papyri be?

Post by _DarkHelmet »

Uncle Ed wrote:
J. R. R. Tolkien warned his readers/fans to not examine the bones from which the stew is made. His son Christopher ignored his daddy's warning and published virtually all of his father's stuff, the "bones", from which Middle Earth came into being.


So now fans of Middle Earth know it is all fiction?
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die."
- Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
_Uncle Ed
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Re: How important should the Joseph Smith papyri be?

Post by _Uncle Ed »

DarkHelmet wrote:
Uncle Ed wrote:
J. R. R. Tolkien warned his readers/fans to not examine the bones from which the stew is made. His son Christopher ignored his daddy's warning and published virtually all of his father's stuff, the "bones", from which Middle Earth came into being.


So now fans of Middle Earth know it is all fiction?

If they didn't before they do now. If they didn't before they were either stupid or naïve. All religion is fiction. This world is a fiction, from a pov outside of it, like our dreams are a fiction once we wake up. That doesn't mean that what is being learned here is pointless, it all has meaning because of the truth behind the events. We believe in fiction as we read it, because it is plausible or even possibly true somehow, somewhere, some other time. If the fiction is convincing that's all we ask of it in order to "get into it". If we suddenly found ourselves part of a story that we thought before was a fiction, and we were convinced otherwise, we would accept it in a heartbeat. That's how it is with religion. If you demand more you are going to be disappointed. Man is in the fiction business because our imaginations are always making things bigger than they are at the moment.

If Joseph Smith hadn't had people coming to see him because of what he claimed about himself, he wouldn't have had converts to make a religion out of. But people were looking for more than the humdrum Protestant persuasions on offer; they wanted the "real deal", the genuine "Church of Christ" restored, and that's what they contributed to and that's what they got. Those not looking for any such thing were never convinced that the Mormons had it, and they still aren't....
A man should never step a foot into the field,
But have his weapons to hand:
He knows not when he may need arms,
Or what menace meet on the road. - Hávamál 38

Man's joy is in Man. - Hávamál 47
_bcspace
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Re: How important should the Joseph Smith papyri be?

Post by _bcspace »

Not enough extant papyri to worry about. The Church quickly and truthfully stated what the fragments were and were not long ago. All Book of Abraham criticism is negated because there is not enough information to even speculate rationally.

Well...we have the papyri with facsimile 1 on it, don't we....so we have enough to rationally speculate about it's (f1) translation.


Yeah, but besides the fact that the Egyptians are notorious for covering up embarrassing history (and thus the meaning of the facsimilie could have been changed), there are also things like this to cast doubt upon the anti Mopologetic speculative assumptions:

“[B]oth Facsimile 1 and Facsimile 3 are assumed to belong to the Book of Breathings Made by Isis because they accompanied the text in the Joseph Smith Papyri. Yet the contemporary parallel texts of the Book of Breathings Made by Isis belonging to members of the same family have different vignettes associated with them. Instead of a scene like Facsimile 3, most Books of Breathings Made by Isis show a man with his hands raised in adoration to a cow. This indicates that the facsimiles of the Book of Abraham do not belong to the Book of Breathings.” John Gee and Brian M. Hauglid, "Facsimile 3 and Book of the Dead 125," Astronomy, Papyrus and Covenant, Neal A. Maxwell Institute
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
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_Themis
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Re: How important should the Joseph Smith papyri be?

Post by _Themis »

bcspace wrote:
Yeah, but besides the fact that the Egyptians are notorious for covering up embarrassing history (and thus the meaning of the facsimilie could have been changed), there are also things like this to cast doubt upon the anti Mopologetic speculative assumptions:


You are stating it as a fact so CFR. that they are notorious in doing this as well as doing it in this case. I call BS which is usual for you.

I would add that you should provide something from non-LDS experts. I know this may be hard for you to actually read something not from an apologetic site.

“[B]oth Facsimile 1 and Facsimile 3 are assumed to belong to the Book of Breathings Made by Isis because they accompanied the text in the Joseph Smith Papyri. Yet the contemporary parallel texts of the Book of Breathings Made by Isis belonging to members of the same family have different vignettes associated with them. Instead of a scene like Facsimile 3, most Books of Breathings Made by Isis show a man with his hands raised in adoration to a cow. This indicates that the facsimiles of the Book of Abraham do not belong to the Book of Breathings.” John Gee and Brian M. Hauglid, "Facsimile 3 and Book of the Dead 125," Astronomy, Papyrus and Covenant, Neal A. Maxwell Institute


Total BS. These two are probably the most dishonest of the apologetic community. We already know they are part of the BoB. It's called the breaking permit of Hor. Fac 1 is an exact match for the image found with the papyri which has text with it identifying as the BoB. It also identifies Hor as the guy on the couch, not Abraham. This is just about a guy who died long after Abraham. It has nothing to do with Joseph's made up story. Fac 3 has text with it identifying the scene and those in the image. Hor is identified here as well. Joseph didn't a thing right. The fact is Joseph was making it up as he was known to do. Zelph anyone.

by the way Images on these papyri do vary considerably from one to another. This is just a dishonest attempt to use this fact to make you think it is not part of Joseph's Translation. I have no idea why they would even try to get away with this since it is so obvious, but then they know many like bcspace will not question anything they say.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_Themis
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Re: How important should the Joseph Smith papyri be?

Post by _Themis »

Uncle Ed wrote:I don't read ID anything, except anecdotal snippets in passing on the Net.

Macro to micro evolution is a function of Creation, in other words, it is observed as a function or method explaining the perpetuation of life within the world of humans. This world/universe was not always as it Is within spacetime, therefore it is caused at some point. The Cause is the only Existence that is itself uncaused. Existence, being inarguable, depends on that fundamental fact. Existence is not caused. Everything derives from Existence....


I love how you want to follow a certain rule about everything we see needs a cause until you get to the first cause, which you want to call God, and then you want to ignore the rule. You also haven't provided why any cause that may have started the universe we see cannot be just some natural cause with no intelligence or design.
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_bcspace
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Re: How important should the Joseph Smith papyri be?

Post by _bcspace »

Yeah, but besides the fact that the Egyptians are notorious for covering up embarrassing history (and thus the meaning of the facsimilie could have been changed), there are also things like this to cast doubt upon the anti Mopologetic speculative assumptions:

You are stating it as a fact so CFR. that they are notorious in doing this as well as doing it in this case. I call BS which is usual for you.


The fact that you don't know this bit of common knowledge about the ancient Egyptians gives one pause regarding the notion that you can speak intelligently on the subject. It's so common that even the made for public consumption articles and TV shows mention it:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/missing-tombs-pharaohs.html

Further proof left to the student.

“[B]oth Facsimile 1 and Facsimile 3 are assumed to belong to the Book of Breathings Made by Isis because they accompanied the text in the Joseph Smith Papyri. Yet the contemporary parallel texts of the Book of Breathings Made by Isis belonging to members of the same family have different vignettes associated with them. Instead of a scene like Facsimile 3, most Books of Breathings Made by Isis show a man with his hands raised in adoration to a cow. This indicates that the facsimiles of the Book of Abraham do not belong to the Book of Breathings.” John Gee and Brian M. Hauglid, "Facsimile 3 and Book of the Dead 125," Astronomy, Papyrus and Covenant, Neal A. Maxwell Institute

Total BS. These two are probably the most dishonest of the apologetic community.


Well, we've already discovered how little you know about the subject, so I call total B.S. on your claim of total B.S.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_Bazooka
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Re: How important should the Joseph Smith papyri be?

Post by _Bazooka »

Uncle Ed wrote:Is anything that Joseph Smith wrote/translated/received/revealed a bad thing today?


Yep, the explanation that a dark skin signifies a curse from God.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_Fence Sitter
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Re: How important should the Joseph Smith papyri be?

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Themis wrote:
by the way Images on these papyri do vary considerably from one to another. This is just a dishonest attempt to use this fact to make you think it is not part of Joseph's Translation. I have no idea why they would even try to get away with this since it is so obvious, but then they know many like bcspace will not question anything they say.


There is no reason to assume that because there are variations in papyri of this type that those variations mean what is on the facsimiles has anything to do with Abraham. It is just like the missing scroll portions. There is ZERO evidence to think that what is on the missing portions of the papyri is any different from the extant portions. Equally there is zero evidence that the variations in the papyri have anything to do with Abraham.

"Look Anubis is is in between Hor and the funerary bier!!! We have never seen that before! That must be Abraham on the bier!!!"

is no more valid than

"Look Anubis is is in between Hor and the funerary bier!!! We have never seen that before! That must be an alien on the bier!!!"

For a good impartial article of Book of Breathings and the Book of Abraham I recommend this excellent article by Lanny Bell
The Ancient Egyptian "Book of Breathing," the Mormon "Book of Abraham.' and the Development of Egyptology in America
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Themis
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Re: How important should the Joseph Smith papyri be?

Post by _Themis »

bcspace wrote:The fact that you don't know this bit of common knowledge about the ancient Egyptians gives one pause regarding the notion that you can speak intelligently on the subject. It's so common that even the made for public consumption articles and TV shows mention it:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/missing-tombs-pharaohs.html

Further proof left to the student.



Fail. You are being dishonest again, but we already know that is your game. Just posting a link to something about Egypt does not meet the CFR. I am already aware that groups tend to write history in more favorable ways. You made the claim they were notorious, which means worse then others. CFR. You made the claim they were trying to hide embarrassing history in regards to the papyri. CFR. I don't expect you will do any more then the dodging we see now.

Well, we've already discovered how little you know about the subject, so I call total B.S. on your claim of total B.S.


You know well what I said is correct and don't want to look the fool. Too late.
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