Who's left?

[_KevinSim]

EAllusion, why do you think that someone who accepts Mormonism (as I do) must be "ignorant, stupid or insane"? Why do you think that Mormonism "is not rational"? Do you think that I am "not thinking about it clearly enough"? And if you do, why do you think so?

Kevin, let me ask you a question by way of illustrating the point.

If I, Charles Ponzi, came to you and asked you to give me a shed load of your cash because I have a brilliant investment scheme that will earn you a fortune - would you give it to me based on just taking my word for it?

No.

No? Would you give me all that money if I asked you not just to take my word for it, but to pray and if you feel good about it then you should give me the cash?

No.

No? What would you require before you would give me a lot of your money to put into my investment scheme?

First off, my relationship with my wife is such that I would need her input before I made any decision involving "a shed load of" my cash. Thomas Monson himself could be asking for that shed load, and I would still tell him that I needed to talk it over with my wife before giving him the money.

That said, if it were up to me, I really can't think of anything that could happen that would prompt me to give you that "shed load" to put it into your investment scheme. In situations like this I usually think investing in myself makes more sense than investing in schemes of other people.

[_why me]

The way things are going, within a few years the only people who will be left in the church will be the fanatics, the insane, and the ignorant.

You seem to forget those members with a strong testimony who have had spiritual experiences that they cannot deny. This is a powerful group within the church.

In fact, if some of the exmembers on this board would go back in time and see themselves as they were in the LDS church, standing up to bear their testimony and testifying of their own spiritual experiences, they just may understand the faithful.

[_Bazooka]

That said, if it were up to me, I really can't think of anything that could happen that would prompt me to give you that "shed load" to put it into your investment scheme. In situations like this I usually think investing in myself makes more sense than investing in schemes of other people.

Yet that's how exactly how you decide to believe in Mormonism, giving them a shed load of your cash.
You give Mormonism your money and a large chunk of your life in return for some vague promises that you will get at some indeterminate point in the future. And you do so based on nothing more than 'one blokes' request that you do so and a good feeling about it.

[_KevinSim]

That said, if it were up to me, I really can't think of anything that could happen that would prompt me to give you that "shed load" to put it into your investment scheme. In situations like this I usually think investing in myself makes more sense than investing in schemes of other people.

Yet that's how exactly how you decide to believe in Mormonism, giving them a shed load of your cash.
You give Mormonism your money and a large chunk of your life in return for some vague promises that you will get at some indeterminate point in the future. And you do so based on nothing more than 'one blokes' request that you do so and a good feeling about it.

Everything in its place. There is a time for asking God a question; when that time came I asked God a question; after I asked the question and got a response, I no longer had the urgent need for the response.

If, for some bizarre reason that I cannot fathom, I had been desperately in need of knowing what to do with my "shed load" of money, and I had asked God (never before having asked a question of God) if I should give it to Mr. Ponzi, and had gotten an affirmative answer, then by all means I would have given Mr. Ponzi the money. But instead I found myself desperately needing to know what God's will was in my life, so I asked God, not if I should give somebody some money, but whether the LDS Church was true. Having gotten my response from God, I was no longer in desperate need of that information any more.

In fact, it's largely because I know that the LDS Church is true that I came to the conclusion that I shouldn't give just anybody "shed loads" of money. The Church has been pretty clear that we should show caution in such matters.

[_Sethbag]

KevinSim, how do you know that the experience that you interpreted as God confirming the truth of the LDS church to you really was God confirming the truth of the LDS church to you?

Are you sure that there are no possible alternative explanations? If so, on what grounds are you sure?

[_KevinSim]

KevinSim, how do you know that the experience that you interpreted as God confirming the truth of the LDS church to you really was God confirming the truth of the LDS church to you?

Are you sure that there are no possible alternative explanations?

There are possible alternative explanations, but they all involve the non-existence of God, and I refuse to believe in the non-existence of God. It is totally possible that, when I asked God if the LDS Church was true, the dramatic response I felt was actually brought on by my emotions. But why, then, didn't God weigh in, as well? God knew that if S/He didn't give me an answer when I asked the question I'd have no way in the world of ever finding out Her/His will, so if there was a God, God simply must have answered my question. I only got one response at the time, so I concluded it must have come from God. What other explanation could there be, if we go on the assumption that God exists, wants us to know Her/His will, and is capable of answering prayers? And I am determined to believe that God exists and wants us to know Her/His will.

[_EAllusion]

KevinSim, how do you know that the experience that you interpreted as God confirming the truth of the LDS church to you really was God confirming the truth of the LDS church to you?

Are you sure that there are no possible alternative explanations?

There are possible alternative explanations, but they all involve the non-existence of God, and I refuse to believe in the non-existence of God. It is totally possible that, when I asked God if the LDS Church was true, the dramatic response I felt was actually brought on by my emotions. But why, then, didn't God weigh in, as well? God knew that if S/He didn't give me an answer when I asked the question I'd have no way in the world of ever finding out Her/His will, so if there was a God, God simply must have answered my question. I only got one response at the time, so I concluded it must have come from God. What other explanation could there be, if we go on the assumption that God exists, wants us to know Her/His will, and is capable of answering prayers? And I am determined to believe that God exists and wants us to know Her/His will.

As an atheist, clearly I think you are working from the wrong assumption to start, but it doesn't end there. It doesn't follow from the existence of God that God will answer that particular prayer. Indeed, you have to accept that God doesn't intervene in the world in some circumstances that people would like him/her to and make every sense to do so. That's what the problem of evil is. Beyond the obvious self-generated explanation, another possibility you aren't considering is that spirit beings other that God were tricking you. That's a live possibility even within the assumed context of Christian mythology.

[_mentalgymnast]

KevinSim, how do you know that the experience that you interpreted as God confirming the truth of the LDS church to you really was God confirming the truth of the LDS church to you?

Are you sure that there are no possible alternative explanations? If so, on what grounds are you sure?

Here we go again...

Seeking for signs.

How in the world would you expect that someone else who believes that they have had experiences with the Spirit and/or God would be able to prove that to you? After all, it's a PERSONAL experience between them and deity. If I was to try and explain what few significant experiences that I've had with "the Spirit" in words that would either make sense or persuade you, I would be hard pressed to do so. It would also be difficult to explain, contextually, how these experiences have had an impact with faith in the restoration in particular. I would throw your question into the category of sign seeking. You know what Jesus had to say about those folks.

Your question, which in no way is unique in its presentation, does serve the purpose, however, in bringing to a close most conversations...because of what I said above.

It is very difficult to explain the taste of salt to someone else. Even when you have no doubt that that was what you tasted.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

As an atheist, clearly I think you are working from the wrong assumption to start, but it doesn't end there. It doesn't follow from the existence of God that God will answer that particular prayer. Indeed, you have to accept that God doesn't intervene in the world in some circumstances that people would like him/her to and make every sense to do so. That's what the problem of evil is. Beyond the obvious self-generated explanation, another possibility you aren't considering is that spirit beings other that God were tricking you. That's a live possibility even within the assumed context of Christian mythology.

I think that the fact that it appears that God doesn't intervene in the world when we THINK HE SHOULD could very well be a/the root cause for choosing the atheistic/agnostic path through life. Choosing to believe "that it's in God's hands" is the tougher way to travel, to be sure. It takes faith and trust in a God who is a lot bigger and maybe even a bit more intelligent than us.

Regards,
MG

[_EAllusion]

I think that the fact that it appears that God doesn't intervene in the world when we THINK HE SHOULD could very well be a/the root cause for choosing the atheistic/agnostic path through life. Choosing to believe "that it's in God's hands" is the tougher way to travel, to be sure. It takes faith and trust in a God who is a lot bigger and maybe even a bit more intelligent than us.

Regards,
MG

A more accurate way of putting it is that God, if God exists, does not intervene in the world in circumstances where God reasonably would if he existed as is claimed. But that's not important for the point at hand. Kevin is reasoning that it only stands to reason that God would answer prayers about the truthfulness of a religion. But that isn't something he can assume while simultaneously believing that it's OK that God does not prevent any of the world's inscrutable suffering. The fact remains that even if his religious beliefs are true, God doesn't intervene in circumstances were it would be reasonable for God to intervene. You say as much yourself. So you cannot assume that any prayer's "answer" comes from God because you'd expect God to intervene in such a circumstance. You've already gone ahead and adopted an argument that says we cannot follow our expectations for when God would and would not intervene because of God's superior knowledge. So you are putting the nail in the coffin of Kevin's argument.

As I said above, in addition to it being an artifact of how the brain works, it could simply be other spirit beings. Indeed, you'll have no trouble finding evangelicals who think Satan is playing a role in such events.